Character Creation: ideal build analysis, and discussion of initial attribute builds
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@therippyone it's just easier to "switch" at the campfire when needed lol. i hate doing the math for this and whatever that is easier is always my option.
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@codetsilon no one knows yet XD and the results are likely to be tinkered with during beta. if no one ever uses a 21, the devs might make the difference more tempting, for example
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@codetsilon Our maximum stat effect 25. I think this will be important for melee players who are battling Dodgers who have an evasion bonus.
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@muker wait 25? isnt it 21?
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@codetsilon prometheus said in Race and Attribute Points:
@jetah said in Race and Attribute Points:
will stats have a cap?
If 50 (random number) is the cap then we can find different routes to it. otherwise we'll just stack 1 or 2 stats for the most benefit.The cap on the final value of each attribute is 25 - even if you try stacking buffs from spells, potions and all, you can't get above that :slight_smile:
And on a side note, even if the cap wasn't there, trust me that it'd be really hard to see characters with 25+ on an attribute. If you have a natural score (basic points + talents) of 20, it's already very unlikely you can reach 25 with temporary bonuses like the aforementioned spells and potions.
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so if i’m not wrong, with a shadow demon i can have a build : 1 21, 1 20, 1 11, 2 10 and 1 6
in this build the 21 is perception, the 20 is dexterity, 11 for str, 10 for int and constitution (after the malus) 6 for charisma. i can also swap the last 2 depend on the spells requirement.
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@suruq Yup - that's a perfectly acceptable build - And it looks like a solid generalist, to me.
though, Be Aware, once you set your stats, they are permanent. You can juggle around the +2 stats from the skill trees when you're in a Resting Phase, but no one has mentioned anything about re-spec'ing a character's stats in game, though many players have asked for it.
Of course, if you are in the alpha or beta tests, I expect there will be several character wipes/restarts as game builds get tested, so you'll get to try things out.
Also, I think you've hit on something most people will agree with - dump stat'ing Charisma. It has the least benefit to the most builds, unless it's the critical component to the build, and no one really understands what the devs mean about "changing conversation options" - but we do know that every character, regardless of stats, will be able to do nearly everything, so these changes can't be too critical - or, at least, that's the current thinking.
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It's much too early to be trying to examine or meta the character creation and which builds are "ideal".
You're going to be doing this with the biases of other existing games, when Fractured is taking a completely different approach - you'll just be frustrated when all your time and math doesn't check out.
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@fibs
Yes, those are my wasted 8 hours (I wrote without stopping), I loved it xD
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@fibs kinda - we know some things - like, the dev's believe that 20 in a stat, and the bonuses that come from that level, are "worth" the costs (which are demonstratively hefty) - we know that 18's get us 20 after some skill tinkering; we know that anything under 10 is "bad" - and we have some idea about "how bad" thanks to their discussions of the malus related to sub-10 Intelligence - losing study slots is a fairly big deal, not gaining as much knowledge in some circumstances is nasty, plus whatever it costs in terms of spell strength and mana recovery that naturally come from that low stat. Further, since the expense of different points varies, we can make some statements about how the devs value different scores - going from 6 to 10 takes 10 points. Going from 10 to 15 - 1 extra level - has the same weight. I assume that this is more an expression of how bad the malus are, as much as anything (and that the malus at 6-8 is notably worse than it is at 9, by the devs thinking) - the devs are convinced it is worth it to get away from those penalties to spring for the extra expense. Extrapolating may not produce the "right" answer - but it isn't out of line to think all of the stats have similar downsided of some sort - downsides that demonstratively makes some integral part of the game much harder. Conversely, 6-10 is also weighted the same as 15-18 - one level less, which almost certainly means that the devs consider the upgrades are not only base value good, but that the chance at the bonus is worth it. the same 10 points only accounts for 2.5 levels going from 18 on up, but they all weigh the same - each point over 18 is worth twice as much as 9-15. in one sense, the devs don't care when you get the bonuses, just that you can. In another, you could argue they think every point is as good as getting that bonus - which may mean the bonus grows on a point basis, and thus all of these values are really really good when viewed through that benefit. a third interpretation is that the benefit from a stat increase is asynchronous - that 10 to 11 get's you 5% better damage, but 15 to 16 gets you a 7.5% boost, and 18 get's you a 10% boost, and ignores the actual benefit of the bonus.
Further, you can make extrapolations of range - we don't know how "good" an 18 is, but we know that 21 is fantastic, because it tops the natural chart, that 25 is absurd, since it's the top, period, and that a maximum temporary buff is probably no better than 5, if you include multiple sources, since the devs tell us that getting from a 20 to a 25 by these sources is hard.
We can thus extrapolate that 5 points difference is major - not in a quantitative way - we can't say "go up 5 points net you 50% bonus damage" - but we can make a qualitative statement that 5 points are a noticeable difference - one that the devs felt was significant enough as to make acquiring it difficult. using those factors, you can say that, if 10 is "normal," 15 is probably "fairly good," 18 is "quite good," 20 is "exceptional," and 25 is "the best"
you can thus make a statement like "A quite good spell booster, can reasonably raise a stat by 2-3 points, taking a 14, that is decent, into a 16-17, which is good" - which is where my assertion that "the spell booster jack of all trades was an excellent all-arounder" came from.
I could be wrong, of course. Logic is, of course, the way to go wrong with certainty XD but it isn't just a castle in the air, but grounded in what information we do have.
To use Suruq's first build (above), we can makes some basic general statements - they aren't going to miss often, and they are going to evade often, and crits will be fairly common for them. they aren't going to be particularly powerful attacking or casting - they are much better geared to archery, preferably with a very fast bow or throwing weapons to maximize the number of times they hit and get a crit - but they can also dodge tank with some success, depending on how they re-skill, and they can take on a role as a secondary caster or dps by relying on a heightened crit rate, and use their perception to make up for lower accuracy but higher damage skill moves, if they make the appropriate re-skills for their passives (Assuming those are things). Those secondary build options may cause some difficulty, especially if they go for the high risk moves, with their mana economy, due to the moderate recovery rate from their average Intelligence, but potions and gear might cover that gap sufficiently. As I said, not a bad build, and a pretty solid generalist.
to put in a last word - the devs have put a significant emphasis on how a newbie and a vet are on a similar playing field - among other things, this implies that the stat selection is a huge element in any character's abilities (And nothing you do in the game matters as much as how you built in creation, mechanics-wise. The only other factor is skill in execution). I can think of 2 sources where you can get more stats - the skill tree, limit 2 per, and a god blessing, which looks like a once in a lifetime occurrence, period. The devs are balancing very hard around the starting character, and making these stats the critical value in their calculations - no gear, as fair as I can determine, affect stats directly - their focus are on affecting skills and effects, instead - derived values that are easier to control and have less overarching reach. in as much as anything is going to matter, these stats, and how you deploy them, are this game's king maker. The rest of the game is using them well (or not).
So, yeah, I could be overstating the value of working out stat arrays, and talking about how to apply them efficiently, in the absolute sense. maybe 18 only have a 10% benefit over a 10 - not likely, but sure; doesn't matter - The devs are still signalling that nothing else will give a bonus anywhere close to that - so, relatively speaking, this stuff is still critical, and worth discussing, even if we don't quite know what we are really saying.
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@therippyone The devs have discussed respec on borked builds specifically, not sure if they intend to have a respec available per character, or what but it has been talked about as something they're looking at adding. I'm hoping they have a number of respecs in the alphas, or wipe often so that we can test different builds to make certain there is balance and they work as intended.
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@greenfire Huh. that's good to know. I'm sort of hoping for frequent wipes myself, for much the same reason.
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@therippyone Until the game engine is playable, we won't be able to ascertain the relative value of each stat at otherwise the same level.
For instance, in a game where AGI affects walking speed, AGI is more disproportionately valuable, compared to a game where walk speed is not AGI-derived.
That particular example would be known and obvious, but there may be more subtle and secretive effects of particular stat combinations based on such things as say, the formula for a hit rate and the maximum Flee rate obtainable both by mobs and by players, which would determine the ideal balance between STR and DEX
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I must admit, I haven't considered yet an exact numbers I can get, since I am still not sure if I want to play a demon or an evil human (I find availability of steampunk enhancements very interesting).
IF I end up playing demon, I would most likely go for Shadow Demon ARCHER and then boost my PER and DEX to ~20, and get other stats to ~10. If I have any point leftover, I would get CON up by an extra point (I'm not exactly sure how much I can get my stats up in this way).
If I end up playing human, then I'm not sure which main "class" I want to build towards yet. It will depend on gaining more info about this steampunk tech, and what one can get with it.
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@gothix okay shadow demon
20, 20, 10, 10, 10, 9
24+38+10+10+10+8=100
(ifs)like I said, boosting a non-affinity stat is expensive XD
An alternative is to go 2 20, 1 11, 2 10, 1 8 - with the understanding you'll go for the +2 skill boost to keep away from the malus of a low stat. Fibs is right, a 9 might have some value we don't know yet, but the basics we do know argue for taking the slight hit to enhance a more useful stat
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@TheRippyOne not sure yet which is the least useful ability for an archer, I'd leave that one on 9.
PER and DEX to 20 for sure, to get bonus to accuracy and criticals (boost to evasion also doesn't hurt), and take the most other stats to 10.
Now only need to find out which will be the least useful stat to leave it on 9.
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Another character I've been considering is a Chadra abomination martial artist that relies on mobility skills, divination, and abjuration for defense: 14 str, 20 dex, 14 int, 10 con, 15 per, 10 cha.
One of the interesting things to consider is that evolved races have their stats automatically adjusted; you don't get to reallocate your stats on transformation. The example that was given in the races Q&A was that liches get +int -cha. This would allow you to get higher stats cheaper assuming the increase and decrease are the same. Let's say a chadra that turns abomination gets +2 str -2 dex and before transformation has 18 str and 15 dex; transforming would take them to 20 str (8 creation point difference) and 13 dex (2 creation point difference) giving them a net of +6 creation points.
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I saw that, and thought it was confusing, but you do highlight one of the best possible scenarios. You could get a real windfall by taking a bump in a high stat, and a hit in a moderate one (assuming it doesn't drop you under 10 and into malus territory).
HOWEVER, it then feels like you'd have to build around the evolution, not the initial form...which might be a weak set-up until you can work your way down/up, morally speaking, but would be quite powerful in the long run. Also, it could be bad if a high stat dropped, and bumps up one a lesser one - the reverse of your scenario, where you'd lose an 18 to gain a 17, and thus lose bonus access, and is a net loss.
Definitely food for thought, and an interesting complication.
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What exactly does luck affect? I'm not sure if this was mentioned anywhere?
Chance for a more resources harvested from a node? Chance for something in combat? Chance to score a chick?
Anyone knows? (I know what charisma means for the rest part, but I still didn't figure out what luck is for).
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@gothix Judging from this:
When chances between life and death depend on the throw of a dice, Charisma makes the difference, skewing the balance towards the best result.
I would guess that luck is a minor boost to all combat related RNG; so crit chance, evasion, accuracy. If there are damage ranges on skills, high luck might skew the RNG towards max damage.
Outside of combat, I have no clue. In a Q&A Prometheus said "we hate RNG", so I don't see them using luck to generate more/rarer resources.
