i do not like the changes to the talent tree and equipment
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i started this test with very high hopes for the future of the game, since there should have been a (small) fix for, what i consider, the worst issue in Fractured, the equipment.
it was before this test very static, you get to scholar items and that it, you have no more progression with items (and its the same for metal too).
while i fought it will be better this test, i found that it didn't, just become harder and more static since the best mechanic in game, the enchantment system, is very expensive, hard to use and behind the city research wall.
and so many enchantment are worth nothing now, there is no damage or stats upgrade only very miner improvement, that is not worth to work hard for.
and its the same with the talent tree, no worth talents, i had so many KP and couldn't decide what to use, since all talents are garbage.
the game feel static and boring, its actually the worst test i had.
and i guess its all because of the horizontal progression, trying to make all players equal no matter when they join the game, just flat failed, its just make the game feel that it not worth trying to achieve anything, since you work so hard for getting stuff, and the stuff do not improve you...to fix this issue, i think, that this steps need to be taken:
- revert the talent tree back to what it was.
- add all the bonus that was in previous tests
- remove the research wall, and allow any one to build anything in his house, and make it harder to build them (so it will be easier for group then solo).
- add additional items for every category, that would be able to upgrade your character.
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@grofire I get where your coming from, some notes, however:
They are still experimenting with the Talent Tree, so going back to a previous version isn't the answer. They need to try some other things, that's true, but if they keep going backwards, they won't get to go forwards with development. Alpha is the time to test everything, even if a portion of the test isn't well received (in fact, that's what Alpha is for, to find those things that won't appeal to the larger player base first off)
It being an alpha, you can also pretty much bet that the number of equipment stage categories are not totally implemented yet. They know we're only in the game for 3 to 4 weeks, and they want to test the systems, not the variety as much, so they have probably artificially limited our choices some. They did add an extra stage to Mage/non-Melee light armor called 'Common/Commer' and then put an extra requirement to make the next stage, Scholar-wear. That is overall an improvement. (and Common gear is REALLY BAD)
Also remember, what you consider worth nothing, another player might enjoy. I agree, there are some talent nodes I'd love to see return (Mana Regen Rate increases) but it is still interesting, especially once fully implemented, what they have on the tree right now. Just stat bonuses (calculated and static stats) is very very boring for a mechanic like the Talent Tree. Interesting features, such as an AoE effect added to Mage Staff/Wand usage, or something like Armor Penetration are much more interesting to many PvE players in the game.
I'm not saying they shouldn't ever go back to some of the old nodes, but they should experiment with different configurations before rehashing old ones.
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I agree with @GamerSeuss here. The game is currently in Alpha and there are many different systems that require testing and analysis that is not gear variety. The abilities, talent tree, armor, weapons, enchantments; all of it, everything that is currently in game right now will most likely not be the only things we have available upon release. Personally, I rather have them focus on tweaking and balancing the bigger systems in front of them. Trust the process.
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@GamerSeuss said in i do not like the changes to the talent tree and equipment:
Interesting features, such as an AoE effect added to Mage Staff/Wand usage, or something like Armor Penetration are much more interesting to many PvE players in the game.
there is 0 synergy, with skills, and 0 options to build different unique builds, that my opinion.
as i said before, i couldn't choose what to take since nothing work with what i wanted to achieve.@LordGorgeous im sorry but that isn't true IMO, this is a game design, this is not a miner issue, if it will not be fix now, later on it will probably will be harder and more work to fix.
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@grofire Yes it is a core part of their game design, but how do they reach a point where they, as well as the majority of the player base, are comfortable with the talent tree's features? Through testing. They probably have a variety of different talents they want to test and these Alphas are specifically for said testing. Furthermore, it is reasonable to assume that there was a a portion of the community during the last testing phase that did not like the previous talent tree, but now enjoy this phase's talent tree a lot more. Those players are entitled to their opinion just as you are, and part of developing a game is to appeal to as much of the game's audience as possible without disrupting the core vision of the game.
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@grofire you and your opinions are just as valid as everyone elses.
That being said, where you saw no viable choices, others reveled in the choices on offer, and look forward to what other options the Devs will come up with.
As to fixing it now, rather than later...Alpha is the time for fixing mechanics, and trying out options. Until they have tried out all the options they want to give a whirl to, they really can't go back and set a set of options and just iron out those options to the exclusion of all others. They need to get feedback. We had 2-3 tests at least with the last set of Talents (if not more) staying pretty much the same, now there's a new set, they deserve at least 1 or 2 Alphas, and then another set should be tried out. The Devs want the best options they can get for the gameplay that THEY envision for the future of Fractured. You are one voice, among many. They are not working for a bunch of Unique builds either, the nature of Fractured, with its ability to respec Talents and Skills at every Fireplace, and then Respec your whole character periodically means that eventually, we're going to get down to a certain set of builds out there. There will be no truly Unique options, because what 1 will build, 100 will duplicate, at least part of the time. The builds will be more geared towards what mob they are focusing on, or PvP, than on trying to totally spec out a fully unique character...nature of the beast.
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@LordGorgeous @GamerSeuss i do not see your point, if as you guys both said they need to test different talents, we need to say what work or not for us... if not what is the point of testing ?
and btw @LordGorgeous since no one complained last test about the talents and skill and enchantments last test, i do not see why to raise such a point?
im sorry guys but for me, it seems that your just defending what that already exist, with no desire to improve. @LordGorgeous raising hypothetical groups and @GamerSeuss says they need to test different stuff but when there is bad feedback, defending the exist.
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I agree that the talent tree isn't really appealing this playtest.
From previously having a hard time to decide what talent to select it was now more challanging to try find one that was actually interesting and fitting my playstyle.
In my view the talents should be made more interesting for different types of characters and made more diverse to give a more widespread spectrum of possible appealing builds no matter what playstyle you have.
Some talents also had more than one bonus which can be nice to some extent, but in some way it also pushes you to commit to that specific playstyle if you want to fully benefit from the talent.
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@grofire So, if a group of people have an opinion, but no one raise's awareness of said opinion, it no longer exists? Or perhaps if someone did share their opinion about their distaste for the previous talent tree, but since you were not aware of it, it no longer exists? Or since it may not have been shared on this forum, it wasn't shared elsewhere? I don't really follow your line of thinking. but the point of my post was to comment that people have differing views. There are so many different factors that you have to take into account before simply reverting it because @grofire doesn't like the current tree. @GamerSeuss and I also were not defending the current tree, we did not compare the trees, nor did we say this tree is better than the other, we simply stated that it is a process that one must follow in order to reach the most optimal position for all players rather than simply reverting it. They make changes, and we test said changes and provide feedback of what we do like and what we do not like, while also understanding the developer's vision for the game. Stomping your feet is not discourse. Moreover, @GamerSeuss and I are the one's suggesting the system should be changed and improved, how are you claiming that we are not when you want the old system?
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@LordGorgeous say if you like or not, saying someone that do or not existed, didn't like the old stuff is just confrontational.
i gave my 2 cents on the current state, you didn't, you just said its not the time to give this opinions.
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@grofire Homie, how many times are you going to misrepresent my point? No one here said that your opinion is invalid, nor that this is not the time to share opinions. Your 2 cents were that you want the old talent tree back. @GamerSeuss and I agreed that we would like to see new systems, meaning new talent trees, or a combination of talent trees rather than just simply reverting back to the old system. You said no, they cannot do that and they must fix it now, implying that your idea of reverting the talent tree is the correct one.
@LordGorgeous im sorry but that isn't true IMO, this is a game design, this is not a miner issue, if it will not be fix now, later on it will probably will be harder and more work to fix.
I simply disagreed by stating we should explore other avenues of talent trees. Nobody invalidated your opinion or claimed that you cannot share it. However if you wish to continue with this discussion, I suggest you re-read this thread before commenting.
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Talents before provided players with far too much sustain and tank abilities which turned most combats into long drawn out slug fests or quick burst boom events.
I agree with the devs that this is not the desired play situation.
Moving these sustain and tank abilities to equipment is a good move in my opinion as it requires more investment of time, money, materials, for an 'end game' build. While before the equipment was cheep and the build mostly relied on tallents which were free to move once acquired and never lost.
There are also many missing pieces in the talent tree and list of abilities along with more resources for crafting equipment. We only have part of the picture.
There are still many pieces of equipment and materials which give stat bonusses. You may just not be looking at all the options.
The imbuing process does have limitations as there is not any direct damage increase that I am aware of. But this is ok as one of the issues was the ease and quickness melee, and with more work mages, could get to damage cap. This is put off by the enchanting method whos cost and bonusses may be adjusted later per testing results.
The flat progression works fine, at any state there exist challenging mobs to fight and at the top end there is city vs city pvp via Sieges. All of which is gated horizontally by gear, not verticaly by talent points.
The point of the cities is to encourage group play. Switching to individual tech would defeat this and thus will not be done. I support the devs in this decision.To your unique build challenge I am currently playing a mage who uses staves and abilities which can crit along with a high perception and crit chance, thus a mage archer thing.
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@grofire In fact, I made a point on numerous occasions to say that your opinion is just as valid as everyone else's. What @LordGorgeous said is true, however, the main thing we are naysaying, is just flat going backwards to the previous makeup without exploring new talents, as well as exploring new focal points to talent presentation.
As @OlivePit says, the new talent tree does allow for more interesting sustained ability, instead of bursts of OP attacks, and constantly growing statistics. There were a few who did in fact express a dislike of the previous Talent Tree's focus on just increasing numbers. That is flat and uninteresting.
Yes, you should definitely express whether you like a current set of talents, or not, keep doing that, that is encouraged. just allow the Devs to not focus on just your opinion of the best Talent tree, and let them mix it up and try new things before they attempt to go backwards.
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I also do not like the new talent tree stuff.
While I do see the need for trying new options; our old options should not have been removed to do so; they could have temporary (maybe even end up permanently) expanding on the tree, or god forbid used some of the empty spaces for unfinished talents for some of these new ones.
Basically they shouldn't be removing talents at all yet, especially when there is spaces for talents that aren't done yet that could have been used for these new and useless ones.
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Here I am! Someone who didn't like the previous talent tree and wanted it destroyed!
Yes, I'm LOVING the current talent tree, I think that it is the best feature of this alpha. It provide small but meaningful buffs, while the previous one was straight improvement over straight improvement and quickly made players spiral in power until there was no possible challenge left.
Now I'm having to fight creatively against all challenges of the game, which is how it is supposed to go.
They finally took most of the verticality out of the talent system, which as I would like to remind everyone it has been stated that should be mostly non influent on a player's strenght, and should provide just a little overall bonus for those who like to min/max. IMO we are still not there, some talents are still too strong, but for sure this is a step in the correct direction.I have a few thing that I don't like about this test, mostly in the enchanting and imbuing area, but talents are good like this. This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some tweaks obviously, but as a general direction I think they nailed it.
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@spoletta do you find the new talents worth working for ?
because, i found myself with extra KP and nothing to take, i stopped playing the test after 3 days, with the feeling there is no place to advanced.
the work is too hard for this reward, and horizontal progression mean no big reward for anything.
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Are they worth working for? If talents were the only goal probably not.
But they are just part of it. Mostly I progress by developing new skills which allow me new builds. Talents are just a bonus on top of it.
You are probably approaching this in the wrong way, with a specific build in your mind, chasing after those skills you want and putting everything else in talents.
The game doesn't work like that. You shouldn't go after a single build, you should go after a wide range of them. That's the progress, having more possible builds. More builds means being able to tune better to the specific PvE and PvP challenges.
The previous system punished this. I hated it. You progressed mostly by talents, which meant that you had to spend as few points as possible in skills, because those KP were needed for more talents. You were punished for expanding your options and exploring new builds. It was a very bad experience.
Talents should be a very marginal element of progression. Skills are the main progression.Then there is also gear obviously, but that has different issues and requires a different thread.
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@spoletta i understand what you saying, but do not feel that true, i tried several build, and different skills, most i didn't enjoy and the one i did, was very weak, and nothing from the talent tree or enchantment helped.
i tried to go mage thief build with high damage single target skill high evasion, lower mana cost, and reduce casting time, nothing on the tree help me. next i tried multi target build getting the chain lightning skill and go for damage and survival build, and again nothing clicked, that seemed that there is no synergy from skills to enchantment to talent.
and every build change was so hard, and i just hated it. i found the game in this state unplayable.
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I'm still going around in primitive wargear. No enchants, no sockets, no nothing.
Stat wise I'm running in the same exact state I was at char creation. Yet, as soon as creating the char, I had very big problems killing a dire wolf.
Now I farm sea trolls without any issue, and am working on a build to solo mountain trolls.
The only thing that changed are the skills. I have 62k kp, I got a lot of skills and can create a lot of combinations. Yes, I have a dozen talent points, but they have just a marginal effect.Horizontal progress is still progress. Your char still gets more powerful and makes you feel powerful, but you have to approach it in a different way.
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@spoletta im not sure what monsters you fight and how, but i have less KP then you, about 49k, and i have scholar items + 1 and enchant amulet, i have several skill that i wanted to get for the different builds, and some talents, but as been said, i felt nothing had synergy.
i do not know how you PVE but if you solo 1 monster at a time, and need to wait every time you kill just to get back HP and mana, then yes it can be done, but that boring and not fun... that it all IMO.
