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Btw, if I'm a fire demon, can I have some of that immunity fire elementals get?
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@benseine I think all races will be increased immunity to elements, or rather % resistance
P s I just finished to celebrate the 8th of March xD
so sorry for ignoring messages in the thread
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@logain said in Enemies with immunity:
No matter what you try, you can never appease everybody. If you decide to allow players to kill fire elementals with fireballs, some people won't play the game. That's why it is important to select a specific target audience and then carter to that.
Oh? Guess you haven't been doing much playing. Name more games that doesn't allow you to kill fire elementals with fireballs than games that allow you to kill fire elemental with fireballs. If what you said was true, I'm sure 90% of the games would be dead right now. There is a reason why this is the case and not the other way around. Have you thought deeply about game design or understand it at all?
@tulukaruk said in Enemies with immunity:
@chrightt, @Jetah I'm assuming that if they put creatures with physical immunity they will also include reasonable way to get a weapon/skill to fight them. And that's why it might be better to have immunity then resistance - they have to include a way for you to fight them.
And random immunity is a plague and nonsense
Only reasonable and explainable immunity should be included IF ANY. If it's included it should be very rare.It might be a fun quest for example to get your Warfare to max level you'd have to beat some physically immune creatures that are of course immune to your lesser Warfare and you have to figure out a way to fight them
No shit they will include weapons for you to kill it. What we are debating now is whether this fact justifies having immunity. What happens to the poor guy who doesn't have the weapon upgraded? Does he just farm his ass until he finds a weapon FOR a single stupid quest?
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@chrightt said in Enemies with immunity:
No shit they will include weapons for you to kill it. What we are debating now is whether this fact justifies having immunity. What happens to the poor guy who doesn't have the weapon upgraded? Does he just farm his ass until he finds a weapon FOR a single stupid quest?
Why not? If there is 1% of quests that require getting special weapon or skill set why would that be a big problem? Especially if that weapon/skills help you with the rest of the game as well.
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I don't like the idea of full immunity, especially if it locks out a whole fighting style. Immunity to physical can be a big issue for the strength-based builds, as they can't respec to INT to circumvent it.
Btw, there are no quests in Fractured. https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/777/can-you-think-of-truly-immersive-and-meaningful-quests-in-the-fractured-world/13
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@vengu this is just a suggestion + immunity to physical damage can be replaced by an increased chance of the evasion
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"the natural elements around you can always be exploited to defeat your enemies, even when all hope seems lost. "
From the descriptions of combat, it seems like even if monsters do have immunities, there will probably still be ways to deal with them that won't involve a full respec.
Say a monster with a shell is immune to physical damage and you're a high strength warrior. Maybe you can roll a boulder into it to shatter it's shell so you can deal damage. That's sorta the image I have of what Fractured is aiming for, and I'm hoping it can deliver.
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I definitely would like to see that'd
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@vengu said in Enemies with immunity:
I don't like the idea of full immunity, especially if it locks out a whole fighting style. Immunity to physical can be a big issue for the strength-based builds, as they can't respec to INT to circumvent it.
Btw, there are no quests in Fractured. https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/777/can-you-think-of-truly-immersive-and-meaningful-quests-in-the-fractured-world/13
Just don't solo and fight mobs with a party. I don't see the problems to have mobs around that have 99% resistance to something. WoW had that too in the past and forced you to bring people specced to couner that. It was funny and for sure better than everyone can do everything. It's a MMO we should be stimulated to play with party members.
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@finland said in Enemies with immunity:
@vengu said in Enemies with immunity:
I don't like the idea of full immunity, especially if it locks out a whole fighting style. Immunity to physical can be a big issue for the strength-based builds, as they can't respec to INT to circumvent it.
Btw, there are no quests in Fractured. https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/777/can-you-think-of-truly-immersive-and-meaningful-quests-in-the-fractured-world/13
Just don't solo and fight mobs with a party. I don't see the problems to have mobs around that have 99% resistance to something. WoW had that too in the past and forced you to bring people specced to couner that. It was funny and for sure better than everyone can do everything. It's a MMO we should be stimulated to play with party members.
And Blizzard got rid of it for a good reason.
Also, not many people are going to group up with a player who's useless because he can't do damage.
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@vengu blizzard has done it due the noobs around. Tricky things make childs cry! The boss resistance was a good choice. People where feeling more usefull. "Shit they needs me for that boss!" And so on, you needed a big pool of players to rotate based on boss resistance, it was pretty funny. About mobs around the regions.. well there where no prolems if you were questing with a party of 5 (mixed classes).
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@chrightt said in Enemies with immunity:
(...)Guess you haven't been doing much playing(...)
Do we really have to get down to the level of argumentum ad hominem? But if that somehow helps you, I've been playing video games since the release of the Atari 800 XL, including the very first MMORPGs on dial-up connections.
@chrightt said in Enemies with immunity:
(...)Have you thought deeply about game design or understand it at all?
Yes. Preferences are different depending on your target audience. What sells well for VW wouldn't sell for BMW or Rover and vice versa. That doesn't mean these brands can not be successful, or would be creating bad cars.
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@vengu said in Enemies with immunity:
Btw, there are no quests in Fractured. https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/777/can-you-think-of-truly-immersive-and-meaningful-quests-in-the-fractured-world/13
Upgrading skills sounds a lot like quests
I know that what we usually mean by quests is a specific task given by NPC that we can track in journal - but getting a rare weapon or unusual ingredient for crafting can be considered quest as well.And of course if you don't want immunity at all you should say it out laud here - after all that's what we all are doing
So the devs can decide what idea sounds best to them and their target audience! I hated immunities in diablo because they were random and not logical.
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@tulukaruk Definitely, you only have a certain amount of knowledge points. If a quest that happens even just 2% of the time happens, everyone must use "specific skill sets" according to you, meaning there will be "required" skills/items. This would be the opposite of what they advertised that everyone can make their own unique path (because everyone is forced to do certain X things if they want to finish X quest).
@logain said in Enemies with immunity:
Do we really have to get down to the level of argumentum ad hominem? But if that somehow helps you, I've been playing video games since the release of the Atari 800 XL, including the very first MMORPGs on dial-up connections.
Yes. Preferences are different depending on your target audience. What sells well for VW wouldn't sell for BMW or Rover and vice versa. That doesn't mean these brands can not be successful, or would be creating bad cars.
I can't help you if you completely miss the point twice in a row. Main point is there is a better option, so please stop digressing from my main point. While I agree that immunity system can work for some games to be a niche thing I certainly don't think it matches Fractured and their "freedom" that they want to give us. To be forced into using certain toolsets to finish certain quests doesn't seem like a free roaming experience for me. It turns into a streamlined process that everyone must do if the quest/mob is even any good. If the quest/mob is junk, then why bother designing the nonsense giving some random crap immunity when high resistance will work for a wider range of mobs?
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@chrightt said in Enemies with immunity:
(...)Main point is there is a better option(...)
What is a good versus a bad option is a matter of perception, which is different across your possible audience. Some people enjoy 'when things make sense' (not being able to stab a ghost with a kitchen knife, since the ghost is immaterial), others enjoy just having an easy time where nothing they do can go wrong.
@chrightt said in Enemies with immunity:
(...)To be forced into using certain toolsets to finish certain quests doesn't seem like a free roaming experience for me.
You are not forced into using a certain toolset, but on the contrary, you are forced not to use one single toolset out of 14 available. That's a vast difference.
@chrightt said in Enemies with immunity:
(...)why bother designing the nonsense giving some random crap immunity when high resistance will work for a wider range of mobs?
You're not designing anything extra. Resistance is a superset of immunity and as such, if you write proper, robust code for resistance, you get immunity 'for free'. That said, do you think there's a massive difference between a 90% resistance and immunity in a game where there's little progression on strength? You won't have characters that leveled high enough to blow an 'early game creature' out of the water without breaking a sweat (read as in can nearly be AFK and still kill the creature with no chance of perishing).
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+1 on occasional fully-immune enemies within reason. My caveats:
- Immunities should be consistent / predictable for the same enemy type, e.g. a guy made out of fire should be immune to / healed by fire.
- You should be able to equip weapons or jump thru other hoops that partially bypass immunities. For instance, in Elder Scrolls, ghosts are susceptible to silver weapons. (Gold should work too - both are holy metals.)
- Bosses should primarily get "random" immunities and other persistent buff traits on optional challenge difficulties. These should not be actually random - they should still be hand-chosen.
Those of you complaining that you specialized yourselves into a corner ("ALL I HAVE IS FIRE AND HE'S IMMUNE TO FIRE!!! NERF PLS") are fools inventing your own problems. You have simply made a shitty character and that's that.
Always get one talent outside your specialty for insurance and/or bring a party specifically so that others can make up for your character's weaknesses.
You simply don't get to be a Mary Sue. Make a better character next time.
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What if Foren is top DPs and people just follow that meta?
Why have immunity at all. They can give mobs high resistance so people can play their way.
I watched an anime (I know but listen) and the main character beat a fire efrite with fire even though. The main character just used hotter fire.
Now if weapons can be changed ooc and they can embued with elemental damage then I could changes mine a little. I still think full immunity is bad game design for a MMO.
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@jetah said in Enemies with immunity:
What if Foren is top DPs and people just follow that meta?
Why have immunity at all. They can give mobs high resistance so people can play their way.
I watched an anime (I know but listen) and the main character beat a fire efrite with fire even though. The main character just used hotter fire.
Now if weapons can be changed ooc and they can embued with elemental damage then I could changes mine a little. I still think full immunity is bad game design for a MMO.
Full immunity is only "bad game design" if you want your MMO to be played single player, in which case it is not an MMO.
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@jetah said in Enemies with immunity:
(...)high resistance(...)
People keep mentioning 'high resistance' but always fail to provide concrete numbers. What is 'high resistance' in your books? 10% damage reduction, 25%, 50%, 75%, 80%, 90%, 95%, 99%...?
(This is not a rhetorical question, because the perception of what is 'high' can vary drastically)@jetah said in Enemies with immunity:
(...)I watched an anime (...)
No comment
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@chrightt they said they're fine with players not being able to reach all the content. Evil demons won't probably be able to reach max lvl in fireball. So some other players not being able to get something because of immunities should be fine as well.
About high resistance - in my book it's worse then immunity because it might make impossible to kill for you - damage output too low vs mob damage output and he simply kills you - and that's where "nerf qq" starts. Because the game tells you that you can kill everything with a single skill and then it turns out it's not really true. With immunity - reasonable immunity - you know that sometimes you have to do something else. I'll use @Jetah argument and say - worst case hire bodyguards
And about anime and mmo - it's not a good argument as they are usually nonsense unfortunately
I'm pretty sure most mmo manga authors didn't play mmo at all.
