Change to Syndesia, the true mix of PvE and PvP?
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Since I came here, Syndesia felt a bit off with how it was described. Its meant to be a place for PvP and PvE, but pretty much only thing stopping it from being pure PvP is a criminal system that criminal guilds will just ignore (kinda like real life, laws only matter if you follow them, ignore the syndesia criminal system hard enough and youre turning it into tartaros).
In my eyes, thats no mix between the two extremes, thats Tartaros-Lite (or Tartaros-medium
).Arboreus is PvErs dream and all the pure PvErs will be there, not on Syndesia.
Tartaros is PvPers dream and all the pure PvPers will be there, not on Syndesia.
But what is Syndesia? Its not the middleground for PvXers. We can already see it in the Alpha. Its just green-er Tartaros with "go in the corner, son!" system.So i propose this radical idea:
Slightly change the looting on Syndesia. Only Inventory+"Other" (like a cart) or Equipped items being lootable on Syndesia (only one of the two, not both).
You can choose what you want to loot on your kill. Did you catch him gathering resources naked or trader travelling to another city => Tasty inventory+cart loot. Came across someone with plate armor (or other higher tier items) => loot the equipped items.
Obviously this would break the idea of Demons (the only PvP race) raiding, so to keep that design or actually,better, promote that design and playstyle, Demons should be the only ones capable of+being the victim of full loot on Syndesia.
This way, Syndesia would be able to get its own identity and be a unique planet instead of almost an afterthought of "what should we do with the ones who like both playstyles?" and keep its Pv+PvP design.
Disclaimer just to be sure: This is an idea only for Syndesia, it wouldnt change your pure PvP paradise on Tartaros, if anything, it would promote the playstyle of demons.
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EDIT: Extra idea from Fractured discord:
Lootability based on red names in your vicinity. One bad guy => more loot open (not full). Loads of bad guys => very little to no loot available from the body. Very effective at stopping zergs.
(I still stand by the partial loot for Syndesia as described above, but this sounded like a good idea to include in it as well)
EDIT2: My idea doesnt have to be the "one and only" you agree or disagree, add yours too. ill try to edit some in (the sensible ones that would promote the "real balance" between PvE and PvP, not "free for all" etc).
EDIT3: So its visible from GamerSeuss => "then get a display of what the character has and the looter can pick X items, be they equipment or inventory, with multiple looters being limited to just 1 Item each. This, plus all the gold on hand would be fair" Combining that with mine above would work great too. Actual compromise.
EDIT4: Another idea ive seen in discords, one was to combine "guild war declarations" into my partial loot system idea, where the declaration would allow full loot between enemies. Since Tartaros is the individual "survival of the fittest" PvP, it makes sense to gear Syndesia towards the Group vs Group gameplay, combining partial loot (for individual and criminal PvP) and full loot (for Group v Group PvP) would be a great way to handle it.
EDIT5, Trik idea: When an evil player knocks down a random player out in the wild they get gold or jewelry that player might have on them, you know like a normal robbery. Karma hit commensurate to the value of the 3 possible things looted. Rings / gold that can be grabbed by evil players. Knocked down player still has their gear and normal pack. You can probably reduce penalties since no one is actually dying. Could leave in full loot for GvG / Sieges / factions / bounty system sheriffs if you want.
Possibly let them take the weapon the player is actively holding. Making it pockets / jewelry / equipped weapon. You know things easily taken from a robbed person.
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Pick one or other is better imo
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The idea of a "balanced" world where full PvP is possible but has its consequences is not bad, if it's correctly implemented.
I think you shouldn't work on the loot aspect but rather on the punishment on low karma players.
Jail is alredy there and kinda punishing in terms of out-of-the-game time when you get put in, but it could be not enough, or not only fair.
As someone pointed out, being put in jail actually stops you from playing the game, which is not exactly all good.
Maybe a system considering a permanent buff for high karma characters and a huge malus for low karma characters could be better, you're not prevented from playing, but doing stuff becomes harder and harder the more you shift towards the dark side.
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@GreatValdus Problem of jail, bails and punishment is...it only punishes the bad guy. Still havent seen it brought up in any discussion but the good guy is still getting f*cked and still angry and at worst case, leaving. It treats the final final illness (punished bad guys), nothing else. In addition any sort of punishment or debuff as you propose, gets mitigated by larger groups, in the end, it doesnt change anything, Syndesia wont ever be the balanced, true mix of playstyles world its supposed to be. Syndesia will forever be green Tartaros-lite
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@LonelyCookie actually a lot of PvPers are already saying that this system is preventing them from doing PvP during this alpha, and usually when every side is complaining about how things are going it means you're doing it good.
That said I can't talk about numbers, of course a big organized group will always smash smaller or less organized ones, but giving a perma-malus to low karma characters will make it easier for smaller groups of heroes to go and smash red players, putting then them to jail, for example.
If you remove looting system you just fully take away the actual risk component in the game, which i find fundamental for it to work.
I think that currently the main problem is players luring mobs on other players and letting them be killed without even flagging red.
As a potentially good PvE player I too fear we'll end up with two Tartaros if the PvP problem isn't addressed, but as I said, PvPers are already complaining for jail to be too harsh, so maybe the devs actually nailed it and we just need to grow some good sherifs to build a punishing party against reds.
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I love the game'sbuild,crafting,gathering,developing a town and seeing grow as u help and be part but the moment i got ganked and lost EVRYTHING i had on me after 24+ hours to make them.....i left the game.....so u see they need to do something about that cose in the end u will stay with the "hardcore" pvp players only......and we all know those arent many around.
No ones wants to lose there shit.
It would be nice if u could just loot the enemy cart,or just get a random item from the inventory,or meaby nothing at all and work on some criminal point system that awards hight criminal with new unique items,titles,attires for chars,pets,even money or anything else.
The full loot game its just MY opinion bad and a no no in a game.Dont get me wrong,it exist and they are some as i said hard players,but trully i dont remeber another game with full loot making a big name.
Meaby a rethinking and readjusting would be nice.
This thing tho is the vision of a game in the developers eyes and i cant argue that if they say "this is it,take it or leave it"sorry for the long post.
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@GreatValdus said in Change to Syndesia, the true mix of PvE and PvP?:
@LonelyCookie actually a lot of PvPers are already saying that this system is preventing them from doing PvP during this alpha, and usually when every side is complaining about how things are going it means you're doing it good.
Good thing we have Tartaros where theres nothing to prevent them, right?
To be completely honest, what current alpha PvPers/gankers think doesnt matter as much anyway, its not a planet meant for them in the first place, its for people like Kelthamon, me and similar minded players who enjoy PvP without ruining everyones day on every opportunity (thats what Tartaros is for). As for demons, it doesnt even change anything, demons would still full loot humans. All it would do is slightly change day-to-day human syndesian life.If you remove looting system you just fully take away the actual risk component in the game, which i find fundamental for it to work.
My proposition wouldnt remove looting system, just make it an actual middle ground between Arboreus and Tartaros, PvPer still gets his adrenaline rush of ruining someone elses day, the killed only loses half of his stuff that killer chooses. Both fairly happy, noone unhappy. Not to mention demons, the main "bad guy" on Syndesia would still be able to full loot no problem.
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Sydnesia needs to be the jack of all trades planet
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not better at pve than other planet or not better than pvp than other planet ( dont remember the planet names)
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Games are Risk/Reward systems, so nobody who is really into gaming wants a system that is too easy to get by (Except maybe someone who really is a Carebear player, and I hesitate to use that term because not every PvE person is one) There does need to be consequences for actions.
The current Bounty system is a step in the right direction, but in the Alpha, it doesn't fully reflect this because in the Alpha, Gold has next to no real tangible value...Sure, you can use it to upgrade your town, and pay your plot upkeep, but that's it, other than Bail, so that's why they need to set the bar high for bail money, to make it impactful.
Time, on the other hand is a premium asset, especially during a limited Alpha run. With only approximately 30 days to pay the Alpha, losing 24 to 48 hrs of playtime can be harsh on a hardcore player, and even a casual who has limited play availability will feel the pain.As I said in the Bounty thread, they can bring about a 1st Strike system for people with 0 to -100 Karma, that only sticks bail at like 600gp, and time in Jail at 6 hrs but that's a 1 time leeway, and once you pass the -100 threshold, you don't get it ever again.
The idea of partial looting has some promise, but mayhaps instead of picking either Gear or Inventory +/- Cart/Wagon, how about they get the Cart/Wagon Inventory, and then get a display of what the character has and the looter can pick X items, be they equipment or inventory, with multiple looters being limited to just 1 Item each. This, plus all the gold on hand would be fair.
I agree, we don't want Syndesia to become Demon-world-Lite by any means, we want it to cater to those who like to PvP sometimes, and PvE sometimes, or like to PvE in a more PvP risky world.
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@GamerSeuss said in Change to Syndesia, the true mix of PvE and PvP?:
The idea of partial looting has some promise, but mayhaps instead of picking either Gear or Inventory +/- Cart/Wagon, how about they get the Cart/Wagon Inventory, and then get a display of what the character has and the looter can pick X items, be they equipment or inventory, with multiple looters being limited to just 1 Item each. This, plus all the gold on hand would be fair.
I agree, we don't want Syndesia to become Demon-world-Lite by any means, we want it to cater to those who like to PvP sometimes, and PvE sometimes, or like to PvE in a more PvP risky world.Can work too. My main goal was to push the discussion for some partial loot change in Syndesia and move it away from the direction its been going (very Tartaros-Lite) to what it should be, a jack of all trades, middleground between both playstyles. We have the full loot option, we have the no PvP option, Syndesia has to be the partial loot option. Fractured prides itself in supporting both playstyles and people stuck inbetween, that inbetween isnt happening currently.
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@LonelyCookie said in Change to Syndesia, the true mix of PvE and PvP?:
nt to loot on your kill. Did you catch him gathering r
Don't think that would work... however.. they could implement a looting system where each player chooses their looting style (full loot, no loot, one item, gear only, random item) and when a player is killed the "lesser" looting system would be used. In other words, if one person have "One Item" loot and was killed by a "Full Loot" then only 1 item would be taken, if the 1 loot person killed the full loot still only 1 item would be taken. However, if two full loot players fought, then the winner would have "full loot" ability.
In regards to wagons.. I think they pretty much should be able to be stolen in full.
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Extra idea from Fractured discord:
Lootability based on red names in your vicinity. One bad guy => more loot open (not full). Loads of bad guys => very little to no loot available from the body. Very effective at stopping zergs.
(I still stand by the partial loot for Syndesia as described above, but this sounded like a good idea to include in it as well)
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A possible compromise option to the whole time in jail thing, instread, the player gets a 'Chain Gang' flag, and they can go out into the world. Monsters can still kill them, but not other players. While they have the Chain Gang tag, the only loot they get to keep is food. Everything else else goes to pay off their bail. They lose the chain gang status when they turn in the equivalent loot. Might even make it like a fetch quest, where they have to produce a certain amount of something to get out, like 100 Coal.
The bounty hunter still gets half the loot value of the bail. The 'evil' player would be able to opt into this alternative system.
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Partial loot is certainly an option for looting.
I don't think that will prevent a PvP'er from killing you though. I don't think it will prevent someone from going evil. I don't think it will prevent a guild from going evil. I'm not saying there will be zero effect. I feel it's such an artificial system to employ. You have to choose this, or that, or two of the three. It's complex and convoluted in my opinion. Could it help? Maybe it could. But not alone.
But it's certainly an ugly way to do it in my opinion.
I don't think the issue is the full loot system. It's the criminal system. I think we can find a better solution.
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As long as there is PvP allowed, there is nothing to keep people from going that route... and they shouldn't be forced to stay away from it. Which is why I came up with the levels of looting options which will allow a person to say just how far they want to go with PvP and sticks with the "risk/rewards". The greater the risk, the chance of the greater reward, but if you don't go that risk you can never get that full reward.
Yes.. it doesn't stop someone from being killed. But mobs can kill a player just as easily. Allowing loot settings allows a non-combatant to keep their loot that they farmed hours for. Also..loot options should be just like alignment settings... either a one time deal or only changeable at shrines/jails.
The other possible option for "crime" is to give greater penalties to people who pk people with a whole lot less KP than they have and lesser when the kp's are closer to even. The problem with this is... you don't know how much KP the other person has and its like playing russian roullett.
Personally, I think the bail time/amount plus loot options would be a good fit. However, the time and bond cost needs to be balanced a lot better than it is, and if the loot option is implemented, then the bail time/bond would drastically decrease in cost.
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@Ostaff said in Change to Syndesia, the true mix of PvE and PvP?:
As long as there is PvP allowed, there is nothing to keep people from going that route... and they shouldn't be forced to stay away from it. Which is why I came up with the levels of looting options which will allow a person to say just how far they want to go with PvP and sticks with the "risk/rewards". The greater the risk, the chance of the greater reward, but if you don't go that risk you can never get that full reward.
Yes.. it doesn't stop someone from being killed. But mobs can kill a player just as easily. Allowing loot settings allows a non-combatant to keep their loot that they farmed hours for. Also..loot options should be just like alignment settings... either a one time deal or only changeable at shrines/jails.
The other possible option for "crime" is to give greater penalties to people who pk people with a whole lot less KP than they have and lesser when the kp's are closer to even. The problem with this is... you don't know how much KP the other person has and its like playing russian roullett.
Personally, I think the bail time/amount plus loot options would be a good fit. However, the time and bond cost needs to be balanced a lot better than it is, and if the loot option is implemented, then the bail time/bond would drastically decrease in cost.
I have a long post in the Jail thread.
It involves altering the karma and crime systems.
But ultimately, I got your partial loot solved in a way that makes logical sense and isn't a game-y system.
Someone knocks you out. They become a temporary criminal. They can only loot your inventory.
Someone kills you. They become a temporary criminal, but gain a murder count. Now they can loot your equipped items.Enough of those murders in a short span of time. You lose access to almost everything.
Thus making murder an end-game mechanic on Syndesia. And a risky one at that. But POSSIBLE.
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Since it kinda derailed into dealing with just criminals. Going partial loot in Syndesia isnt just about criminals. Its just a side effect.
Its about giving players a true middle ground between between Arboreus and Tartaros. Would it solve criminals? Nah, but it would certainly help with the victims (that are getting ignored all the time) not quitting, because surprise...theres loads of people standing between pure PvE and pure PvP and these people (me included) have no place in Fractured despite supposedly being for all playstyles because 3 planets.
As it stands, theres no planet for people "I dont mind PvP, but I dont seek for it". Syndesia is not a mix or middleground. Currently its a planet for pure PvPers that should really be demons but "I dont like how demons look", thats what I want to change, make Syndesia be its own planet.
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My little suggestion (might be pretty dumb) is to have a PVP button switch off/on
Arboreus: no button as it is a PVE world only
Syndesia: PVP button that can be switched on/off
Tartaros: no button as it is a PVP world only (PVP galore)- PVP-OFF means you can't be killed by other player, and you can't kill others
- You can switch off/on with 30 mins in between (or more) to prevent abuse
- If you switch to PVP-ON and you killed another PVP-ON person, you can't switch back to OFF until you get killed or caught by bounty hunters.
- Full loot, as thats the risk of trying a PVP, at least you have a choice by turning ON a PVP button.
- Jail system can still be implemented with the gold bail cost or make the criminal work for gold.
Will this scare the PVPer? Time will tell, the full loot might make it a bit attractive to find other PVP in the same world. And co-exist with other non PVPer
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Ugh, wish I would have fully read your post before posting mine, however I think we share some of the same thoughts.
