Map clarity
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I actually like maps that don't show everything.
It puts requirement on players to learn their surroundings and those players that explored more, and learned more will have deserved advantage. (Not only ran through maps once so their avatar learns, but they learned as live players)
Also, home populations will have advantage over invaders.
I personaly strongly believe this is the right way, and it would actually be bad to remove those benefits of people working to learn the lands.
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@Gothix
Well, most of the people play MMORPGs mainly for playing with other people, so balance is way more important than exploration. After 500 hours of gameplay I doubt anyone will ever care about exploration anymore. Why map clarity is a big thing in a full loot pvp game is one of those things that it's not easy to explain, but you understand it immediately when you are being ganked and get stuck on a hill that doesn't look like a deadend on the map.
Also, I don't see how home populations will have advantage over invaders. In a zvz, it really doesn't matter. This becomes an advantage in chasing situations (so mostly gankers vs traders or solo players).
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@Razvan said in Map clarity:
@Gothix
Well, most of the people play MMORPGs mainly for playing with other people, so balance is way more important than exploration. After 500 hours of gameplay I doubt anyone will ever care about exploration anymore. Why map clarity is a big thing in a full loot pvp game is one of those things that it's not easy to explain, but you understand it immediately when you are being ganked and get stuck on a hill that doesn't look like a deadend on the map.
Also, I don't see how home populations will have advantage over invaders. In a zvz, it really doesn't matter. This becomes an advantage in chasing situations (so mostly gankers vs traders or solo players).balance is giving the home planet advantages in that they know the area better than the invaders. if the map wasn't fully explored then people would care about exploration. you could argue from a lore perspective, at least on the fury planet, that the flora can change the visual of the land so that invaders always have a fog of war, aka unexplored map, while in an invasion.
that change because of overgrowth can be used for everyone on the human planet too. IE i've never been to Washington state, so i don't know forest as well as a local hunter would. thus they'd guide me. if i lived there then i could learn it and not need the guide.
America had the American Revolutionary War which the locals knew the land so much better than the Brits. Thus it gave us a huge advantage.
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@Jetah
"balance is giving <...> advantages to [a certain group of people]"
Have a nice day, Jetah!
PS: In this light, tomorrow we'll argue that people in parties shouldn't be able to use abilities.
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Knowledge SHOULD give you advantage.
Not only avatar knowledge, but "player" knowledge as well. Intelligent players SHOULD have advantage over non intelligent players.
Players that put in effort SHOULD have advantage over lazy players.
BALANCE = everyone has equal opportunity to put in effort and learn things. If you don't you SHOULD get owned.
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Haha, that's interesting. In the thread we were talking about grind you said that knowledge shouldn't give advantage because this is a horizontal progression game and now you say that knowledge should in fact give advantage. So how is it?
~~Anyway, there are some people who never played a full loot pvp game before yet come and give opinions about how stuff should be. No problems with that, but the thing is some of the suggestions translate in frustrating gameplay. Not being able to read the map is one. You see, I don't go to an upcoming FPS game forums and claim camera should randomly move to a certain direction to simulate how soldiers get scared in battle. In the same light, please install Albion (it's f2p now), play it for one month in the black zone and decide for yourself if some of the features you are requesting for Fractured are actually as cool as you imagined. With this occasion you will also understand how player dynamics work in these games: ganking, zvz, market-flipping, monopolies, how alts affect the game, why solo is not really a viable option, why you need to be able to dispute spots, how does the economy work, how would mounted combat affect the game, how much most of the long term players care about exploration and roleplay.
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@Razvan said in Map clarity:
@Jetah
"balance is giving <...> advantages to [a certain group of people]"it is balanced tho.
you go to a place you've never been, go into the woods without gps, phone, map, etc and see how far you make it. see how long it takes you. that's how it should be for the attackers. i'm going to main a Demon so it's a disadvantage for me. unless there's a cartography 'profession/knowledge' then getting a map should be hard. you should have to explore the areas so your character to make a note on the land and layout. remember that the world was broken into 3 fragments. it's very possible that things changed and what your character once knew, doesn't know any more.
@Razvan
I played Eve Online. nothing will ever be as sandbox and gank heaven than that game.
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I personally never had any issues with the world map. But i did practically ignore the mini map. If you actually pay attention, you CAN see all the impassable zones... as the vast majority of them are cliffs, which ARE marked for you on the map. It is just a matter of having the brains to realise it isn't a footpath. as @gothix said earlier in this thread, this game is all about players gaining advantage purely through their own knowledge of the game... not on having better gear or even a better map or whatever.
If you are having trouble with monsters, put in time to make potions before you go and try to gather up 50 wolves or attack a spider nest... or simply, walk around the enemies instead of through them. If you are worried about dropping everything from PvP coz u can't look where u r going... then don't play on one of the PvP maps... simple.
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@Razvan said in Map clarity:
Haha, that's interesting. In the thread we were talking about grind you said that knowledge shouldn't give advantage because this is a horizontal progression game and now you say that knowledge should in fact give advantage. So how is it?
Avatars should not get raw power mechanical advantages by (for example) "having stronger fireballs" than other avatars, and thus be able to own them without an effort.
Your knowledge (human knowledge) should be your weapon, and if you have more game knowledge than other player you should be able to benefit from it.
So avatars should be (raw power wise) as equal as possible (differing only in more deck options), but your human knowledge (and effort) is what should separate successful players from unsuccessful ones.
So I play my avatar, and because I have more (human) knowledge i own you, then we switch avatars and you play mine and I play yours, but I own you again because our avatars are mechanically similar, but I (as human player) have more knowledge then you, and more playing skills.
What is so hard to understand here?
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@Gothix said in Map clarity:
What is so hard to understand here?
Most (PvP) players hate to be equal, hence the aiming and other bots in the history of gaming
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@Yitra said in Map clarity:
@Gothix said in Map clarity:
What is so hard to understand here?
Most (PvP) players hate to be equal, hence the aiming and other bots in the history of gaming
Most people will certainly try to find an edge (even unfair ones).
This doesnt mean developers should further help them to get an even bigger advantages including such mechanics in game.
If the aim is to try to make the game as horizontal as possible, then this should be attempted everywhere (wherever possible) mechanically.
And then players can compete in amount of playing skills and game knowledge they have acquired, depending on amount of effort they have invested.
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@Jetah
Balance means an even distribution of something. Giving somebody an advantage without taking anything back without a good justification it's not balance imo.I played Eve Online. nothing will ever be as sandbox and gank heaven than that game.
Then some of your posts here are even more interesting. I'm especially talking about the posts where you encourage features aimed at solo players. After playing a game which is basically the pinnacle of sandbox economy you should understand that regardless of what the devs do, locks most of the content will be locked from solo players. So, do you just argue with people for the sake of arguing?
Anyway, going back to the thread - Eve online is very slow paced game, in which chasing and trapping targets in map obstacles are not a big part of ganking. By the impressions I got from playing Fractured so far, I feel it will be more similar to UO and Albion in this regard.~~---------
@Xzait
You have examples where passages are not accounted for on the maps in the first post.~~---------
@Gothix
First of all, read your own post.@Gothix said in Map clarity:
Knowledge SHOULD give you advantage.
Not only avatar knowledge, but "player" knowledge as well.This is contradictory to your HORIZONTAL POWER PROGRESSION posts from other threads. That's what I pointed out.
Second, advantages comes in a lot of forms, not only in raw stats and player skill. Maps don't really help in pvp, but they play a big part in ganking. I think that being able to read maps quickly is a valuable skill (especially for gatherers). If your argument for not having proper maps is to buff gankers, then I disagree because ganking on the same map every day until you can navigate without pressing M is a big enough advantage, compared to their targets who have to periodically check the map (press M) while being chased. I don't think you need to further handicap the targets.
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Maps don't really help in pvp,
the home field has an advantage. those that know how to avoid the impassible can run from threats. they can setup traps, they can use the terrain to their advantage. example. if you know a place isn't passable then you may use a movement ability to go over the problem. the other person might not have any gap closers that go over obstacles which gives you an advantage. now the next time the threat visits, they'll have that mobility skill to go over the bad areas.
maps (knowledge) really do help in PvP. learning hiding spots, flank routes, where to have camouflage, etc all help the player in PvP. this works for every First Person Shooter that has existed.
i enjoy solo play. i enjoy coop play. depending on the topic it could be either side.
Fractured will be a solo friendly game. it's been said by the developers. i see both sides as i enjoy both content. but this is an open world MMO game which should require duo+ to function well to enjoy it. but if everyone is capable of soloing everything then what's the point of it being an MMO?
so you're saying, putting a stasis web sentry near a stargate isn't blocking the map? that's the most effective way to gank!!! it's much like fishing but still effective. (it's been 10 years since i've played so names of things may be off.)
side note: yes, i love to argue. i love seeing other view points to topics. I listened to a recording, many years ago, where the person state they do their best to think of 3 ways to solve every problem. I thought that was a great idea and started to do the same. it's why I have a good perspective in life.
I love giving alternative perspectives to statements, ideas, and even arguments.
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Just takes time to get use to it. Besides, this is still the alpha
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There actually is no reason not to mark roads - even if I´d pick a demon and decided to visit furries lands.
Of course I´d prepare in advance If i decided to make a hunting trip - im sure soon after release the internet will offer a very detailed map of place I´m going to visit, so I´d just plan the path beforehead.Would including roads help everybody? Yes. Would not including the road make game better? No.
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@Razvan let me put this in the simplest terms possible.
Avatars should be as equal as possible mechanically, differing only in current deck of skills chosen.
Humans (players themselves) should be smarter and less smart, so players with more brain should win.
Game should allow PEOPLE to show how smart they are, rather than allowing AVATARS to show who has stronger fireballs.
My posts are all perfectly aligned with each other. If you do not understand them, thats another issue.
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@Jetah
It makes sense to use a high mobility build if you plan to chase (ganking), escape (when transporting, and don't forget we have mounts and probably dismounting mechanics) or skirmish (solo-trio players; least common situation). In everything else, a disengage skill will be pretty much mandatory, but other than that high mobility means sacrificing other combat stat. Now, of course that holding a chokepoint will be a huge advantage in zvz, but zergs have scouts. Realistically, gankers are the group who get the most advantage from leaving maps this way.A lot of games are advertised as solo-friendly (including Albion), but good luck gathering or farming any high level spot not controlled by your alliance.
PS: You also raised an important point - will the game have traps that we can place on the ground for ganking?
@Gothix
... Again, what you said is pretty clear,
"Knowledge SHOULD give you advantage. Not only avatar knowledge, but "player" knowledge as well."Anyway, as I said, I was just pointing out the funny thing in that post, I'm not interested in further discussion about this, so let's drop it. What I'm interested about is the bold part addressed to you in post 33, which you completely ignored. What are your thoughts on that?
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Hi everyone.
This is my first time participating in the forum. Indeed, I am very new to Fractured community. I discoveved the game just yesterday.
I followed most of the discussion on this thread, and I there are things that I don't get completelly. Let me say first that I do understand how maps are important and the information they provide can make the difference between life and death in some edge situations. But from what I got, one of the selling characteristic of the game is that you can interact with the world and you actions have an impact on it, i.e., you can change the landscape, am I correct? If so, when facing a situation where a certain path is blocked, should not the player peharps be able to perform some action that allow him to overcome the barrier? For example, freeze a portion of a river, break a chain of blocking stones, etc.
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@asspirin said in Map clarity:
There actually is no reason not to mark roads - even if I´d pick a demon and decided to visit furries lands.
Of course I´d prepare in advance If i decided to make a hunting trip - im sure soon after release the internet will offer a very detailed map of place I´m going to visit, so I´d just plan the path beforehead.Would including roads help everybody? Yes. Would not including the road make game better? No.
but that takes effort. demons on the fury planet can only visit during the eclipse and only stay for 30 minutes. we dont know how we'll spawn so there's a chance it's random with multiple spots. the planet fractured. demons wont know the layout. the beast wont know the layout of Tartarus, both of those what know the layout of the human planet. as the character makes more visits to the planets, i can see them eventually put more details on the map.
personally, unless the avatar visits then the map should be blank. unless you have some cartography points it should be very basic. if you wanted to see roads and passable areas then you'd need more cartography points.
@Razvan
i dont see how a mobility skill will sacrifice a combat stat. we have a limited number of skill slots but if you can't disengage or gap close then you'll lose most fights. there's the gif of the earth wall going to and the person jumping over it. i expect to see that a lot.@Phylosophys
we dont know to what extent the map can be changed or how permanent it'll be.
personally we shouldn't have a mini-map. this is a sandbox game without handholding.
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@Razvan avatar knowledge does not produce mechanical raw power advantages which i am against. It gives you more options for more deck choices, which i said in my opinion, there should be.
More deck choices (advantage in having more options to chose) - yes
Ability for players to use human knowledge to their advantage (knowledge of terrain, playing skills) - yesAvatars having advantages through raw power spell difference - no
There, specified again
