Enough attackers / defenders during eclipses
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Looking at recruting guilds, it seems to me most guys will be either demons of humans (to pvp from day one). However beastmen can also be demons, so I would count them as demons for "conquering purposes" in battle human vs demons during eclipses. Will such battles be balanced in numbers? In real world it took 10 times more attackers to defeat the castle / fortified city. In that case, will there be enough demons?
Who are YOU going to play?
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Most likely mdps demon main, and roleplay hermit (house outside city) human alt. Classes are not set in stone tho, as I cannot test them yet.
Anyway, I'm not so much concerned about invasions - if there are too many demons, they will probably fight eachother as well instead of all allying and fighting human. The thing I'm most concerned about is the economy - on the demon planet things will be expensive since it's full loot pvp (and they will probably add a trash-system to help crafters), while on the furries planet things will eventually become dirt cheap. Even if items will somehow be lost in the furries planet (items getting destroyed once they lose durability or whatever system), the mats will still be very cheap because it's safe to gather them.
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@Razvan said in Enough attackers / defenders during eclipses:
Most likely mdps demon main, and roleplay hermit (house outside city) human alt. Classes are not set in stone tho, as I cannot test them yet.
Anyway, I'm not so much concerned about invasions - if there are too many demons, they will probably fight eachother as well instead of all allying and fighting human. The thing I'm most concerned about is the economy - on the demon planet things will be expensive since it's full loot pvp (and they will probably add a trash-system to help crafters), while on the furries planet things will eventually become dirt cheap. Even if items will somehow be lost in the furries planet (items getting destroyed once they lose durability or whatever system), the mats will still be very cheap because it's safe to gather them.
i see the fury planet being better geared average over the human and demon planet. but if the fury invasion happens monthly or similar then it could balance out a little.
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@Jetah
Yes, but would you risk your pve gear on pvp during the invasion? I wouldn't, unless it's cheap to replace it.
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@Razvan said in Enough attackers / defenders during eclipses:
@Jetah
Yes, but would you risk your pve gear on pvp during the invasion? I wouldn't, unless it's cheap to replace it.we shouldn't have expensive gear at all. the game being horizontal should mean that worst and best aren't difference enough to really matter. but i've read where stone/bone weapons would do 20% less damage than steel which makes me wonder how horizontal the game will be.
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stone/bone weapons would do 20% less damage than steel which makes me wonder how horizontal the game will be.
Exactly ... and thats just one tier above primitive equipment, wonder how many there might be as it´s a fantasy game, so one would expect some magic materials. It would only be horizontal, if steel and higher tiers would also have some kind of disadvantages.
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@Razvan said in Enough attackers / defenders during eclipses:
Anyway, I'm not so much concerned about invasions - if there are too many demons, they will probably fight each other as well instead of all allying and fighting human. The thing I'm most concerned about is the economy - on the demon planet things will be expensive since it's full loot PVP (and they will probably add a trash-system to help crafters), while on the furries planet things will eventually become dirt cheap. Even if items will somehow be lost in the furries planet (items getting destroyed once they lose durability or whatever system), the mats will still be very cheap because it's safe to gather them.
For "BiS" gear (if there ever will be something like that, let's say more "specific" gear made for "specific" circumstances/fights) I still expect that you will need mats from all 3 planets. So if I stay with my beast-man on Arboreus. I need someone else to gather those mats for me, which should make it also a more rare/expensive material.
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@Jetah said in Enough attackers / defenders during eclipses:
we shouldn't have expensive gear at all. the game being horizontal should mean that worst and best aren't difference enough to really matter. but i've read where stone/bone weapons would do 20% less damage than steel which makes me wonder how horizontal the game will be.
"Horizontal progression" doesn't mean a specific thing to me to be fair.
It could mean that you have absolutely no restrictions on what your character can do - in other games you pick a class (warrior, mage, rogue) and then unlock skills and equipable gear ("vertically") as you level up. In this game you don't have requirements (class, skills, level) to unlocking stuff (thus, not a vertical progression as you can expand "horizontally" as much as you want). If you make an alt and wish to equip him with the top gear you can do so. If you want to unlock "fire tornado", you don't have to be a level 30 mage which has "fireball" spell unlocked.
PS: Although there are some restrictions - for example magic being incompatible with plate.But anyway, I doubt "horizontal progression" means what some people on the forums suggest ("new characters are as strong as seasoned characters"), which is basically no character development at all.
And here are some hints why I think it's not the case:- you only start with a handful of skills and you have to unlock the rest (it should be obvious that a character with a full bar of skills will be stronger than a character with only 3 active skills)
- skills can evolve up to level 3
- we can unlock talents clicky
- I read that for more advanced gear you will need materials from all the planets. What's the point in doing all that work if they are not better?
@asspirin
Well, being costly is an important disadvantage in full loot pvp.
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but to advertise the game as 'horizontal' then have a high vertical gear system will turn off some people. if it's 20% stat difference on the first tier to second then what about the first to fifth or third to fourth? what if there are 5 tiers, and there's a 100% difference between 1 and 5. now if the gear is 20% from first to second but only 5-10% between next tiers then i could be ok with it. IE 20, 22, 25, 27, 30 so there's a 30% difference between 1 and 5 but only 3 between 4 and 5.
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@Jetah
The difference will probably be lower as tiers go up as it is a common trend in similar games.Anyway, I think they should be more specific in what they mean by "horizontal progression".
From my point of view, if my character can equip and craft everything in the game, then there is a horizontal progression even if we have weapon tiers. To put it bluntly:- vertical progression = I have to craft 500bone spears to unlock the ability to craft iron spears or to fight 500mobs with a bone spear in order to unlock the ability of equipping iron spears
- horizontal progression = if I have the materials to craft a magical steel sword I can do so even if I never crafted swords before and if I have a magical steel sword in my inventory I can use it even if I never used swords before. (we asume that magical steel sword is the best possible weapon of its class)
@Yitra said in Enough attackers / defenders during eclipses:
For "BiS" gear (if there ever will be something like that, let's say more "specific" gear made for "specific" circumstances/fights) I still expect that you will need mats from all 3 planets. So if I stay with my beast-man on Arboreus. I need someone else to gather those mats for me, which should make it also a more rare/expensive material.
I also read something like that and it makes sense, but still the resources specific to furries planet will be very cheap compared to the ones specific to the demon planet because there's no risk in gathering them.
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- yes, it is (nuker with 3 nukes < nuker with 8 nukes :D)
- abilities don´t have 3 lvls, but 3 variants (that don´t differ in strenght but effect)
- yes, yet we still don´t know what they offer ... but you´re right - its advantage over starting guys
- point is such materials don´t necessarily need to be better but more customisable - you could fine tune your build to be more specialised, it would be nicer than just "same thing with higher numbers" ... would also be more "horizontal"
*you forgot "god´s blessing" which starting characters probably won´t have as it takes some divine quest
Sure, it´s full loot, but then why would I walk around with weapons hitting like wet noodle If i knew I might be attacked, I would rather hold proper weapon
... not talking about fact killing monsters would take 20% longer.
Difference of 20% damage is HUGE - it´s same as having 10% crit chance to 200% damage in game, where the only "crit stat" - PERCEPTION - gives you 0,5% chance per point - would you let it go? I wouldnt.This (hopefully) isn´t 24/7 grind/farm simulator like Albion (at least devs stated it). Equipment should be easily replacable.
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Equipment should be easily replacable.
that's my thing, if it's easily replaceable then it shouldnt jump so much from tier 1 to tier 2.
it would suck to be a new player, not in a guild know nothing about the game, and run against 1 other player with steel or better gear while using sticks. you'll already do 20% or less damage, wont have the knowledge to do extra damage, wont have the gear to reduce or increase your damage. it's a lose-lose system for new players. that to me isn't really horizontal.
@Razvan
to me horizontal is any new player can win against a veteran if skill is the same. but an automatic 20% damage difference between the starter crafts and steel is just too much. now i'd play a test to actually see how bad that difference is but as asspirin mentioned it's much more than what you'd get with skills.
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it's a lose-lose system for new players. that to me isn't really horizontal.
Well, it´s classical mmo with classical "lvl 30 vs lvl 1" ... you should count with that
Bigger problem would be immunities ... which are present in game (Fire resist aura giving immunity to fire damage). Then even if it´s "lvl 30 vs lvl 30" fire specialised mage will have 0 chance to defeat the other one because of "I WIN" ability - THAT´S the problem
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@asspirin said in Enough attackers / defenders during eclipses:
- abilities don´t have 3 lvls, but 3 variants (that don´t differ in strenght but effect)
According to the wiki, " leveling up an ability increases its power – be it a stronger effect, increased duration, reduced cooldown, and more. However, they’re always minor differences, mostly interesting on a competitive level.". Even if it's a 10% increase in only one of those areas, if you account for the full bar of skills, the difference becomes significant (think of 100IP difference in Albion - it won't turn a bad player in a formidable adversary, but it makes the difference between 2 equally skilled players).
Sure, it´s full loot, but then why would I walk around with weapons hitting like wet noodle
If furries are invaded only a few times per month, in the invasion days they will probably not bring their best gear. Of course, I don't know how easy will be to replace top gear here, but I was thinking about something like being able to invade HCE in Albion a few times per month. If we could do that, I very much doubt they'd bring their top gear. =))
This (hopefully) isn´t 24/7 grind/farm simulator like Albion (at least devs stated it). Equipment should be easily replacable.
I think it will be grindy, but a maxed out character won't have the insane bonuses they do in Albion.
Anyway, I agree that 20% is way too much. It's more than 2 tiers in Albion.@Jetah said in Enough attackers / defenders during eclipses:
to me horizontal is any new player can win against a veteran if skill is the same. but an automatic 20% damage difference between the starter crafts and steel is just too much. now i'd play a test to actually see how bad that difference is but as asspirin mentioned it's much more than what you'd get with skills.
What I don't understand is: if a new character can fight a seasoned character as equal, where is the progress / character development?
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According to the wiki, " leveling up an ability increases its power – be it a stronger effect, increased duration, reduced cooldown, and more. However, they’re always minor differences, mostly interesting on a competitive level.". Even if it's a 10% increase in only one of those areas, if you account for the full bar of skills, the difference becomes significant (think of 100IP difference in Albion - it won't turn a bad player in a formidable adversary, but it makes the difference between 2 equally skilled players).
This has been changed a while ago, wiki is not very up do date
Some skills from alpha are missing, some still have "wand and spell saves". Now there are 400 abilities, each of them has 3 variants - no power levels as it used to be, so there are actually 1200 abilities planned 
If furries are invaded only a few times per month, in the invasion days they will probably not bring their best gear. Of course, I don't know how easy will be to replace top gear here, but I was thinking about something like being able to invade HCE in Albion a few times per month. If we could do that, I very much doubt they'd bring their top gear. =))
Furries won´t be evaded at all, demons will have such huge debuffs, that only masochist would do that ( why would they, during eclipses they can freele roam human world, so why rape carebears
)What I don't understand is: if a new character can fight a seasoned character as equal, where is the progress / character development?
New player can´t fight seasoned player ... it´s simply not possible - at least not until he gets more than starting 3 abilities (logically caster with 8 nukes is more powerfull than same caster with 3 nukes) and even then he will have not many chances against well built character.
However even if both had same character with same abilities, talents and equipment, skill would still do a lot. Remember counter strike? I know, it´s fps, but even with same equip noob would get pwned by pro 10 out of 10 times. Also games like DOTA2, LOL and such games - no persistent world, your hero always starts from beginning, but try to play against seasoned veteranKnowing game mechanics, knowing meta, best combos, complete knowledge of cooldowns of all skills - all makes huge difference even without much of char developement.
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Also have to remember that forum population is a very small percentage of how many will actually be playing the game. Only the devs will be able to give us the actual numbers by pulling data when the game goes live.
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@asspirin
regarding Arboreus invasions: For fun. I wouldn't mind risking inexpensive gear (think 5.1oc) for a chance to get good loot.
regarding character development: Yes, but I said "new character" (as in alt), not "new player".
Still, this game is targeted at mmorpg players, right? One of the big things that draws players to this kind of game is the sense of progress. It feel like it's a huge gamble if you make a mmorpg with very little character development. Then there's the fact that a bunch of ideas I see here look good on paper, but will turn out to be something else once they will be implemented in the game and people will abuse them. These 2 things drop my confidence in this project a bit.
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@Razvan I agree with you ... i´d also like little bit more of choises - tuning your character like for example in Secret world (not getting stronger (bigger numbers) in general, but more specialised.) Let´s have faith in devs
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Can't answer yet. Not enough info.
But my main will be either human or demon.
- I will not play PvE mode game.
- I'm to lazy to grind my life to reach abomination.
So depending on PvP possibilities I will either roll demon or a human (human could be more fun if sieges (with siege engines) + territory control, provides more organized PvP fun than pure FFA style demon PvP).
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I am going for sure to be a Beastmen, because it has Cats
But i am curious about the Abomination and how long it will be to reach it.
I am also very curious how PVP will work in Fractured. I am hoping for a good challenge and something that it is worth to do PVP, not just to show in 1:1 who has the longest and thickest
