Dual Wield / Fist Weapons
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@asspirin Also the question arises, viable for what? for PVE? for PVP? A lot would depend what you wanted to get out of the game. Is your goal to run around and murder everyone or survive a careful exploration of the game world (or both).
Personally I love dual wielding for flavor. I have a 5e character I play in a shared campaigned that is a dual wielding Fighter. She cant compete in terms a damage per round with barbarians or great weapon fighters but she is still alive and dishes out decent consistent damage and she is still alive. I guess that makes her viable (and fun to play).
So I guess the viability of builds will be all about what you want out of the game?
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@Jetah said in Dual Wield / Fist Weapons:
@Tuoni said in Dual Wield / Fist Weapons:
@Jetah
some picturesand do you think your character does 53.95 dps with skills with that weapon?
No I do not and I have not said anything like that either. Like @asspirin said, we have all the time talked only about weapons. You pulled all the other stuff in the conversation.
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@Gibbx I hope that with 400 (1200) skills everyone will find a way to make build work - be it 2H or dual wield. Devs themselves stated both weapons are "viable". I´d guess for both - assassin build will need "assassin weapons" - dagger / axe, i´d say these are one handed. Maybe some assassins will use shields, but most will sure go dual wield. And heavy armored guys will sure fancy 2h huge weapons and mass crits. Imo both ways are doable for both pve and pvp, but you sure are right about "the flavour" - why would someone play something he doesn´t like in the first place, in worst scenario one can roll beastman and only kill mobs in group, each to his own.
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but damage isn't based off the dps display. it's the range of the damage. in the pics above the wand 281 - 469. the sword 44 - 115. all damage is calculated from any number between.
i seriously doubt we'll be just melee swinging weapons for damage in this game. the skill bar and action attacks typically mean no auto-attacks (aka white damage).
when i said dps/dpm i meant it. a halberd doesn't do the same dps as dual 1h because it can 2 seconds to make your swing while the dual may hit 3 times. which is why i said it could be equal over a minute. i even mentioned the hunter class in wow as it's a burst damage class which is similar to the halberd.
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@Jetah You do not clearly understand how DPS is calculated in weapons, so it is quite vain to go any further. Have fun with your pointless and irrelevant comments.
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@Tuoni said in Dual Wield / Fist Weapons:
@Jetah You do not clearly understand how DPS is calculated in weapons, so it is quite vain to go any further. Have fun with your pointless and irrelevant comments.
and you're ignoring that we aren't using weapon attacks to fight. we're using abilities that use weapon damage range.
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Im guessing weapons will generally be balanced between each other.
Skills will be vastly different, and its not possible (or fun even) that every skill is exactly the same.
But since everyone will have access to all skills and a free choice, that will provide the balance.Its just important that "schools" in general are somewhat balanced between each other. For example illusionism vs assassination.
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@Jetah said in Dual Wield / Fist Weapons:
@Tuoni said in Dual Wield / Fist Weapons:
@Jetah You do not clearly understand how DPS is calculated in weapons, so it is quite vain to go any further. Have fun with your pointless and irrelevant comments.
and you're ignoring that we aren't using weapon attacks to fight. we're using abilities that use weapon damage range.
And I have left the abilities out of my comments for a good reason, those were not part of the discussion at first place, and we can only guess how all the abilities, which are not implemented will act with different players' playstyles and skills. You can freely talk about abilities if you like, but do it generally and leave my comments out, because those have nothing to do with your arguments.
@Gothix said in Dual Wield / Fist Weapons:
Im guessing weapons will generally be balanced between each other.
Most likely yes and DPS is used there as one of the main factors.
Skills will be vastly different, and its not possible (or fun even) that every skill is exactly the same. But since everyone will have access to all skills and a free choice, that will provide the balance.
Hmmmm... This is a really good point, which is actually why not everything needs to be a 100% (or even close) balance. Of course notable gaps will be fixed, but there is no neccesity or rush to do so.
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@Gothix Well if that happened, problem would occure: 1h weapon has 200% of speed and 50% of damage of massive 2H weapons - so they both do same dps. But even if they do same damage, they hit twice faster, so things like passive stun are still better with fast 1h (or not, if 2h will have 2x bigger chance to proc stun or more stun duration). But if you attacked with both wepons (for full damage), you would have 200% of speed of 2H weapon and 100% of its damage.
In WoW you a) dealt 50% dmg with offhand if dual wiending, but you would still do more damage than 2h, so you were also b) handicapped with your hit/miss chance. 2H also got much bigger damage bonus from strength than 1h.
In Grim Dawn 2h weapons have massive damage and armour only absorbs flat amount of damage, so even the slowest 2h weapons are competitive. But armour in Fractuded works with procentual resistances.
Also if you attacked with both weapons, your weapon passive bonuses would double (twice the crit damage, twice more chance to stun for example...unless passive stun is on internal cooldown - and i hope it is, getting permastunned would suck).
So if dual wielding you:
- have massive damage handicap (at least for offhand)
- have huge miss chance
- alternate weapons with some speed bonus (maybe make dual wielding exceed attack speed cap)
- offhand weapon will not have weapon passive ... but then why would you pick second weapon
- no handicaps, but your offhand would attack like only every 4th attack (so you would still have 25% dmg bonus and you would benefit from more attack speed + passives from weapons like more crit damage would further specialize you as dps)
- same as five, but with procentual chance (25% chance to attack with both weapons)
It should be more offensive than 1h+shield....but it´s still not decided how shields will work
How would you solve it ?
P.S.: Will "One handed weapon style" have any bonuses (in Baldurs gate 2, Pillars of Eternity and some other you had 2h style (more damage), dual wield style (more speed) and one weapon style (more crits), or it´s either sword and board or 2h?
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@asspirin said in Dual Wield / Fist Weapons:
Will "One handed weapon style" have any bonuses
I guess there won't be such a thing which is called one handed weapon style. I presume the idea is either use 2-h weapon, dual wield or use a single 1-h weapon + offhand item. This offhand item can be a shield, tome, orb, horn, torch, instrument, talisman or other stuff like that.
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I hope changing weapons will have some decent cool down attached if they will end up being switchable in combat.
For example, you can switch weapons in combat but cool down is 10 seconds, so you can't just spam switch weapons with macros and use alternating skills.I really dislike anything that is (ab)usable with macros... people stop playing the game and start "playing the macros".
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I'm totally against a large cd for weapon switch since we are very restricted by the amount of skills you can have at the same time. That aside Prometheus did mention in the q&a from yesterday that they don't want makro-able(?) things in the game, and if we think we found something in the systems that are a thing to makro we should toss it to them so that they can get rid of it.
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@Gothix they need a cooldown for it and hope that happens macro bs shouldnt be a thing.
