Attacks speeds depending on armor ?
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Mages would perhaps be able to "tank" e certain caster type mobs, because mages should logically be good at resisting elemental type damage, since it's their art.
They should not be able to "tank" a sword piercing their intestines.
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@Gothix said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
Mages would perhaps be able to "tank" e certain caster type mobs, because mages should logically be good at resisting elemental type damage, since it's their art.
They should not be able to "tank" a sword piercing their intestines.
no one can tank that.
i'd see a mage tank using spells to enhance armor so they can take physical damage.
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@asspirin said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
@deusex2 From balance point of view it´s understandable, isn´t it (ADaD had it same way). One can´t be both tank and dps. Mages will have Abjuration school of magic that specialises in protection; my guess is you will be able to make spellcasting tank, but your dps would suffer. Or do you prefer it for the looks? It was stated, that you should be identified as caster / assassin / warrior (light / medium / heavy) on first look. And also heavy armor would probably be too heavy for mage to wear (or you would have to buff your stregth but also lower your casting stats or gimp defensive ones, so you would still be only half mage). Just opinion.
From what I understood, only restorative sort of magic will be available while wearing heavy armor. So you won't be able to cast other spells, while wearing armor. I'd like to have the ability to wear heavy armor while casting spells, even if to a limited effect, having the ability to do so would broaden the possibilities of a caster, exactly as you're saying-either specialize at casting and wear light armor, or wear heavy armor and be a crappy caster, but live longer...
And, of course, there's the fact that heavy armor usually looks way cooler than some stinky robes, too!
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@deusex2 Yes, you´ll probably see many "paladins".
So you want to be a caster with low casting abilities, because you want to wear heavy armor ? Dont think it would broaden your possibilities, it would rather thin them - malus would either be on cast speed (easily interruptable - youre dead), or mana regen (cast few spells and wait/run/die) or mana cost (same case). In the worst scenario the damage. As mages in this game are suppossed to be glass cannons (due to being limited only to cloth), in heavy armor you wouldn´t be glass, but you wouldn´t be cannon either
So i don´t really understand what role you would take in your team (if fighting in bigger battle). You wouldn´t do much as dps with your lowered offence and you wouldnt tank either.Devs stated, that spells uncastable in medium / heavy armor will mainly be damage spells, not sure about buffs other than restoration and protection (which would make you paladin / cleric from ADaD). However it would be nice to see some debuff casters in heavy (Dark Templar from AoC or Antipaladin from ADaD, generally "death knight"), who would deal melee damage.
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I don't personally see why someone shouldn't be able to wear heavy armour whilst being a mage. As it is for RPG's that i have seen, heavy armour specialises in physical defence and has low magic defence, while clothes or mage armour is the opposite; low in phys defence and high in magic defence. Light armour is a balance between the two. Why can't a player choose to smash out high dmg magic spells, but be countered by other mages because of the armour they wear, despite their choice of skills?
I have seen clerics run around in heavy armour on other games.
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@Xzait Of course clerics run in heavy, but they mostly support and heal - these you will encounter in Fractured too, we´re talking about nukers in plate armour.
Cloth with mag res>phys res and heavy with phys res>mag res would imo suck, if you had to have huge strenght to wear those. Magic res is already gained from inteligence, phys res from strenght, resists to elements from con.
And of course if two guys with same setup of abilities and same build, but each in different armor duelled, the one with armor "better suited for this fight" (ara plate user if both went melee) would easily win. Therefore no skill, but luck in choice of equipment.
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@Jetah said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
@asspirin said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
@Jetah Then it´s ok i guess, didn´t really play WoW since Burning Crusade so haven´t met those
Your previous reply seemed like they can facetank with ease while massacring opponent. As long as you can have either godly damage OR impenetrable defence (or little of both in balance), everything is fine. My post was rather about deusex2´s post (who would like to see mages in heavy armor) wow has horrible pve vs pvp balance. 1v1 my dk can do pretty good in dps spec and tank spec but it's a much longer fight in tank spec. i just looked it up and unholy dk is 13 while frost is last at 24 in pve damage meters. but any balance patch can change that.
i wouldn't mind mage tanks (as a spec so to speak) but casters in plate, i'm wanting to say crusaders and some form of paladin was just that (usually with just holy though). they typically had a spell that increased their armor.
i know ultima online has issues with casters in mage-plate in that they were nearly unkillable. i can see the theory of trying to prevent that.
@Jairone
the idea of someone in full plate running equal to someone in cloth or leather is horrible too. it depends on the era of armor we're talking about too. which i wouldn't mind seeing an evolution of gear over the years. plate can be bulky, heavy and not really a good thing for a melee person to have. over time the techniques can improve and new metal can be found which can make the metal thinner but still as strong.There's a problem, if you can't keep up for at least a short while. That problem is that you HAVE to be ranged in heavy armor at that point, or you are nothing but a kiting target... or a meat-plug in a hole somewhere being healed. That's been done in any number of games, and it merely ensures that you have a dearth of people in heavy armor, because the required abilities work better with a different build focus anyway.
Further, it's actually realistic to run at about the same speed. Especially for trained warriors. The idea otherwise is tied pretty heavily to being outrun over long distances, which remains true... but that's best represented not as a maximum speed, but a limited time for going full speed.
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@Jairone said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
Further, it's actually realistic to run at about the same speed. Especially for trained warriors. The idea otherwise is tied pretty heavily to being outrun over long distances, which remains true... but that's best represented not as a maximum speed, but a limited time for going full speed.
That is not true at all. No matter how well trained someone is in a full plate mail, they would not be able to keep up with someone that is running away from them in light armour that weighs literally 10x less. It is the same for weapons. A master Greatswordsman will not physically be able to swing a large greatsword faster than someone swinging a rapier.
A greatsword is designed for great physical power, as a heavy armour is designed for a formidable defence. Using a rapier sacrifices brute power for speed and piercing. Light armour sacrifices a large amount of defence for agility and manouverability.
Running at the same speed in all armour is in no means realistic at all.
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Hence it is very hard to add realism to a game because a game has different mechanics than real life. Real life has so many factors that can't be realized into a game. Weather, different consistencies in materials, temperature the list can go on and on. Real life doesn't have magic. There comes a point when players have to abandon the idea that a game has to emulate real life. A game has to be fun and for it to be fun for most players there needs balancing. Real life is rarely balanced. Those who win usually have some advantage.
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we have magic. all electronics run off smoke. if you release it, the item no longer works. that's magic to me!
typically plate classes have a gap closer while leather (chain in hunters) and cloth have gap creators or CC.
typically ranged has high mobility (to an extent) while melee has higher damage. at least thats the idea in pve.
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@Farlander
RL doesn't have magic? Well I quit that crappy game then.
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It's quite possible to add realism to game but you can't add it to only one factor then, you would have to add it everywhere for balance.
For example if you make person in heavy armor move 50% slower... you can' have heavy armor provide only 10% more defense. It would also have to provide a lot more.
Also, take into account that game isn't simulation to begin with.
People will have skills to instantly charge other people... tell me where have you seen such movement in RL, excluding someone carrying rocket engine on his back and turning it on.
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it's a simulation to an extent. but it should be fun too. there's a reason why developers want physic calculations in games.
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@asspirin said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
@deusex2 Yes, you´ll probably see many "paladins".
So you want to be a caster with low casting abilities, because you want to wear heavy armor ? Dont think it would broaden your possibilities, it would rather thin them - malus would either be on cast speed (easily interruptable - youre dead), or mana regen (cast few spells and wait/run/die) or mana cost (same case). In the worst scenario the damage. As mages in this game are suppossed to be glass cannons (due to being limited only to cloth), in heavy armor you wouldn´t be glass, but you wouldn´t be cannon either
So i don´t really understand what role you would take in your team (if fighting in bigger battle). You wouldn´t do much as dps with your lowered offence and you wouldnt tank either.Devs stated, that spells uncastable in medium / heavy armor will mainly be damage spells, not sure about buffs other than restoration and protection (which would make you paladin / cleric from ADaD). However it would be nice to see some debuff casters in heavy (Dark Templar from AoC or Antipaladin from ADaD, generally "death knight"), who would deal melee damage.
It all depends on spells and the way armor-to-spells interaction is implemented... Thinking of DND, you could wear heavy armor and cast arcane spells, using Still Spell metamagic feat. You'd get penalized and you would forfeit higher level spells, but you'd be far tankier than the tank, if push would come to a shove, and you'd still, be doing damage with most spells.
Honestly, I hope for a similar play style possibility-somewhat of a high risk-high reward. You'd be harder to hit, but at the same time you'd still be squishy. So if you do get hit-you're in a deep Tartaros ^_^
And if you're not setisfied with such play style-you can always switch back to wearing robes and "spamming" Magic Missiles.
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@Jetah It´s a simulation of fantasy fight in fantasy world, so imo whatever devs put into game is correct, as long as it´s balanced because it´s PvP
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Balancing is the issue on anything added when pvp is involved.
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but if it's stupid then the fantasy and immersion isn't there (which some people love). it's also a sandbox. which means there shouldn't be any real limits on what we can wear and what we fight with. i do agree that mages in plate can be a problem and should suffer some disability but it shouldn't be impossible.
there are melee type mages, like the death knight and crusader. paladins cast spells. paladins were once priest that decided to fight on the front lines.
i've seen the gear you wear determine how much mana you have. so it was persuading casters to wear cloth or leather.
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@Jetah From my understanding "melee type mages" are viable - as long as the damage they deal is melee
- Paladins like fighter/cleric multiclass or Paladin from ADaD are (as devs stated) 100% viable - restoration skills will be castable, probably also buffs, so no problem there; not sure about Abjuration spells to make propper bubble boy
- Death knight - not so sure here, we don´t know about non-damaging debuffs, summoning spells and weapon enchanting ones
Lets hope most of non damaging spells will be viable for all armours, even if with some downsides; it would be nice, if each school had some spells that 1) would depend on melee atriibutes, 2) were not considered "spells" and were castable by everyone. If from 14 schools only 2 are melee (and one barehanded), it would be weird if warriors could use only such a tiny fraction of abilities, so i don´t worry
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@asspirin
i was thinking more retribution (thus damage) paladins.the DK, at least in WoW, that i'm thinking of is the frost spec which uses frost spells along side melee attacks. think of it as frost enchanced melee weapons. but there's undead which uses diseases along a rez'd ghoul and melee to fight. the blood spec is the tank spec which siphons HP during an attack, not really a melee-mage in the sense here but more vampire/leech which takes spike damage but can self heal.
that begs the question would casters be prevented from the other 2 melee schools?
to me a sandbox game shouldn't have those limitations but other limitations.
if i see this as Eve Online, where the character boost ship abilities and each ship class has different hp, armor, shield and weapon configs. so the ships have a power source. the weapons used part or most of that power. the Amarr were the lasers which used so much power, so their ships had larger capacitors. 2 races uses physical projectiles, 1 of those supplemented with drones and the other race used missiles. it was possible to use any weapon on any ship (assuming it has the mounts for it as not all ships had missile slots) the disadvantage would be the power from lasers (which didn't use ammo until the T2 crystals).
that might not have helped me...
what would be sweet, although a programming nightmare, is if the armor modified the spells. but we'll probably get some type of mage plate which wont have as much AR as melee plate but still allow casting. the only problem then is balancing how much plate and mage plate make the person tough and still deal damage.
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@Jetah Allright, but what would you suggest for casters in plate? On my mind comes reducing their damage, making them cast spells only once a few seconds (so they couldnt nuke you with X nukes in two seconds), make mana costs for them so huge they would have to sip blue bottle every three spells etc., but would they still enjoy it, if the heavy armor was actually worn only for cosmetic purposes? I wouldn´t. With max INT i would rather do what mages do - magical protection, debuffs on enemy damage and CC so enemy doesn´t even reach me.
Or simply reduce mage´s damage if wearing plate so they´re balanced on DMG-----DEFENCE scale. But imo with low dmg they will lose purpose.
