Attacks speeds depending on armor ?
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Just few questions concerning attack speed -
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will it be only depending on your dexterity and buffing abilities /potions, or will higher types of armor (chainmail / plate / full plate etc.) slow your attack / move / cast speed as well (like in for example Pillars of Eternity)? Will armors have same special passives like helmets do, or will they differ only in resistances they offer and increased casting costs?
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Will attack speed of autoattacks be always the same? Considering we have 8 slots for abilities, for melee they would probably be: 2 skills slots for persistent defensive auras, 1-2 skills for heals / purges of debuffs, 1-2 skills are distance reducting skills (leap, charge etc.) at least one should be slow / stun on low cd, so tthis would leave just few active skill positions left for actual attack abilities, which means melees depend heavily on autoattacks. In alpha melee fight is fine, but with exception of animation cancel (orb walking) theres not much to do and you just watch your char to the same attack repeatedly (in PvM). What if the system of autoattacks would be like in moba SMITE (autoattacks in sequence of fast+ low dmg attack ->fast + low dmg attack -> slow + high damage effect ), it would make autoattacks probably more interesting, particularly for builds not going crit dmg route (if there will be any). Or maybe some effects depending on weapon (so far there is passive stun on blunts, couldn´t it be made less random? I mean crit bonus on axe is persistent and for high crit build probably neccessity and while random stun is nice for everyone, its just that - random. Lets make it "after x damage received, next attack stuns because youre enraged" or "every x-th attack stuns"...anything than just RNG. And while i know crits are RNG as well, you can increase crit chance, but can stun chance be increased? ).
And last thing - will weapons of the same tier have more versions? I mean for example in Diablo II -polearms: Cryptic axe - slow, high damage, big range , Giant Thresher - fast, lower damage, best range, Ogre axe - medium speed, medium damage, medium range. So lets say you could make Primitive 2H axe, Primitive 2H axe +25% dmg, -25% attack speed and Primitive 2H axe -25% dmg, +25% attack speed. While the same DPS, certain builds would sure enjoy more customability of weapon stats (weapons wouldnt be better, just different, which is imo horizontal way). Btw you´re not planning "faster hit recovery" as in Diablo / Path of Exile, right (ministun after being hit for X% of max hp in one hit)?
Thanks for your opinions / answer.
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I asked in another armor thread about whether heavier armor was going to lower stats like dexterity or perception while wearing bulky helmets as it does in D&D.
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@asspirin said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
- will it be only depending on your dexterity and buffing abilities /potions, or will higher types of armor (chainmail / plate / full plate etc.) slow your attack / move / cast speed as well (like in for example Pillars of Eternity)? 2)
- Will attack speed of autoattacks be always the same?
Hello! Remember that since Fractured it's an action game you can't have too low attack speed. So, it will be quite high (the base speed will have 1,2 APS) and it will depend mostly on Dexterity (each point will enhance ATT SPEED by 1%) and on your weapon.
There will be three range of speed depending on the type of weapon that you will use: slow with 0,8 APS (e.g. two-handed axes), normal with 1,2 APS (e.g. one-handed swords) and fast with 1,6 APS (e.g. daggers).
Then maybe there will be other special items with attack speed modifiers like rings or amulets.
Will armors have same special passives like helmets do, or will they differ only in resistances they offer and increased casting costs?
Armors won't slow your attacks but:
- Medium armors won't allow you to cast spells
- Heavy armors won't allow you both to cast spells or move in stealth mode.
And last thing - will weapons of the same tier have more versions?
We will have more versions of the same tier but with different special properties (e.g. bashing that will give you a chance to stun the enemy).
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What about movement speeds? Will someone in lighter armor move faster around the screen than someone in heavier armor? Will this affect your mount speed also?
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@Farlander said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
What about movement speeds? Will someone in lighter armor move faster around the screen than someone in heavier armor? Will this affect your mount speed also?
No, we'd like to avoid numerical malus for the armors.
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@Znirf said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
@Farlander said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
What about movement speeds? Will someone in lighter armor move faster around the screen than someone in heavier armor? Will this affect your mount speed also?
No, we'd like to avoid numerical malus for the armors.
so heavy armor can't stealth but can sprint as fast as someone in cloth or leather armor... that's putting their defense up and keeping their speed up. maybe consider .9 speed instead of 1.0.
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@Jetah Imo it´s logical, as plates / rings in chainmail make little more noise than lets say gambeson. And you´re right, chainmail slows you quite a lot, but it´s a fantasy game
And probably heavy plate users with all stats on STR and CON will have hard time dispelling all the slows and other movement impairments anyway.Concerning disability to cast spell with heavier armors: what exactly is spell - will abilities have tooltips that they´re spells? Or will you not be able to cast anything with mana cost (this would be weird as many abilities even in warfare consume mana) ? Or will mana dependant abilities not considered spells keep their maluses on mana costs like in alpha, increasing with armor tiers (i dont know whether hide armor in alpha that had maluses on mana and dodge is considered light armor)? Or are spells only abilities with save bonuses depending on INT? I hope heavy armor users will have means to purge disables non-magical way too.
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Armors won't slow your attacks but:
Medium armors won't allow you to cast spells
Heavy armors won't allow you both to cast spells or move in stealth mode.Paladin style is off the table then
Unless the definition of spells is different then I think. @Znirf Can you enlight us on that?
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@asspirin said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
@Jetah Imo it´s logical, as plates / rings in chainmail make little more noise than lets say gambeson. And you´re right, chainmail slows you quite a lot, but it´s a fantasy game
And probably heavy plate users with all stats on STR and CON will have hard time dispelling all the slows and other movement impairments anyway.Concerning disability to cast spell with heavier armors: what exactly is spell - will abilities have tooltips that they´re spells?
@Yitra said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
Paladin style is off the table then
Unless the definition of spells is different then I think. @Znirf Can you enlight us on that?
You're right, I was too broad speaking about "spells"; we still have to lay down rules on this topic. Anyway, each spell will have specific priorities related to casting requirements.
With light armors you will be able to cast mainly spells with direct damage or with arcane properties. Quite all the healing spells under Restoration can be casted also with heavy armors, the same for some of the protections or for particular spells like the Word of Power.
All these choices will consider the game and class balance, for example, all the Mage spells will be limited to light armors. Most likely all the abilities will show the "armor ranks", so you will be able to know what you can and can't cast.
I'd like to give you more insights about this but, as you can understand, we still need to work on it.
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@asspirin said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
Just few questions concerning attack speed -
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will it be only depending on your dexterity and buffing abilities /potions, or will higher types of armor (chainmail / plate / full plate etc.) slow your attack / move / cast speed as well (like in for example Pillars of Eternity)? Will armors have same special passives like helmets do, or will they differ only in resistances they offer and increased casting costs?
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Will attack speed of autoattacks be always the same? Considering we have 8 slots for abilities, for melee they would probably be: 2 skills slots for persistent defensive auras, 1-2 skills for heals / purges of debuffs, 1-2 skills are distance reducting skills (leap, charge etc.) at least one should be slow / stun on low cd, so tthis would leave just few active skill positions left for actual attack abilities, which means melees depend heavily on autoattacks. In alpha melee fight is fine, but with exception of animation cancel (orb walking) theres not much to do and you just watch your char to the same attack repeatedly (in PvM). What if the system of autoattacks would be like in moba SMITE (autoattacks in sequence of fast+ low dmg attack ->fast + low dmg attack -> slow + high damage effect ), it would make autoattacks probably more interesting, particularly for builds not going crit dmg route (if there will be any). Or maybe some effects depending on weapon (so far there is passive stun on blunts, couldn´t it be made less random? I mean crit bonus on axe is persistent and for high crit build probably neccessity and while random stun is nice for everyone, its just that - random. Lets make it "after x damage received, next attack stuns because youre enraged" or "every x-th attack stuns"...anything than just RNG. And while i know crits are RNG as well, you can increase crit chance, but can stun chance be increased? ).
I reckon a set stun on every 'X'th attack would be bad rather than RNG. If you build up ur aps (if it will be possible) too high, you would leave no window at all for mages to cast spells... it would be an artificial stun lock. RNG allows mages to have a chance to get more skills in before they end up getting cancelled. RNG also gives a player more of a chance to get away if you keep jumping on their face with the leap skill u mentioned as well, if they never wanted to have conflict in the first place. Due to that, i would also think distance leap skills should have a descent cooldown so players actually CAN get away if they dont want to be fighting.
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@Xzait Those passive stuns could also have internal cooldowns (let´s mention Barathrum in DotA), why not. No matter, was just an idea.
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Honestly, I'd rather have the ability to wear heavy armor while casting spells, but having enough incentive to wear light armor, instead of being confined to light armor only.
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@deusex2 From balance point of view it´s understandable, isn´t it (ADaD had it same way). One can´t be both tank and dps. Mages will have Abjuration school of magic that specialises in protection; my guess is you will be able to make spellcasting tank, but your dps would suffer. Or do you prefer it for the looks? It was stated, that you should be identified as caster / assassin / warrior (light / medium / heavy) on first look. And also heavy armor would probably be too heavy for mage to wear (or you would have to buff your stregth but also lower your casting stats or gimp defensive ones, so you would still be only half mage). Just opinion.
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If you could do everything in heavy armor there would be no reason to wear anything but heavy armor lol. Only allowing light armor for mages is the standard glass canon. Usually spells do the most damage/attack so there has to be some balance and that is the loss in armor rating.
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@asspirin said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
One can´t be both tank and dps.
death knights, crusader, and ret paladins say you can.
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@Jetah Yet "real" dps should outdamage those if both specced fully into offensive, if not, something is wrong, yet it sure happens often - for example in Pillar of Eternity : warrior (tank) would (with proper weapon, stats and passives) outdamage everyone, while being the tankiest dude in party. In singleplayer games it doesn´t matter, it´s about fun. In pvp this would cause serious disbalance and as Farlander said - who would run around in pyjamas, while you can wear heavy armor without penalties? Everyone and their moms would wear heavy armor, any medium / light would be for roleplay reasons only. Lets hope devs balance the choice of spells well, but plate user doesn´t need damage spells, he can facetank, so let him smash enemy melee, what he need is heal, purging debuffs and self buffs so he can keep close and deal damage - these spells will remain usable even in plate, so whats the problem.
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oh i agree that their dps shouldn't be great. those i listed are usually the hardest to kill but almost tickle for dps. but i know that playstyle is enjoyed. i enjoy my dps DK in wow and my crusader, at times, in diablo 3.
i just hope taunt actually works in pvp!
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@Jetah Then it´s ok i guess, didn´t really play WoW since Burning Crusade so haven´t met those
Your previous reply seemed like they can facetank with ease while massacring opponent. As long as you can have either godly damage OR impenetrable defence (or little of both in balance), everything is fine. My post was rather about deusex2´s post (who would like to see mages in heavy armor) 
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Good. Armor slowing users is an old trope that needs to die already. It leads only to one of two ends: That in PvP those players are just kited to death, and that in PvE the roles that utilize such armors feel less interesting to play as a result.
There's room for stamina as a replacement to that idea, if needed. For instance, where I can sprint at basically full speed carrying 80 lbs. I cannot do so for as long as I can unencumbered. That's carrying 80 lbs. of odd bulk as well, not fitted armor...
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@asspirin said in Attacks speeds depending on armor ?:
@Jetah Then it´s ok i guess, didn´t really play WoW since Burning Crusade so haven´t met those
Your previous reply seemed like they can facetank with ease while massacring opponent. As long as you can have either godly damage OR impenetrable defence (or little of both in balance), everything is fine. My post was rather about deusex2´s post (who would like to see mages in heavy armor) wow has horrible pve vs pvp balance. 1v1 my dk can do pretty good in dps spec and tank spec but it's a much longer fight in tank spec. i just looked it up and unholy dk is 13 while frost is last at 24 in pve damage meters. but any balance patch can change that.
i wouldn't mind mage tanks (as a spec so to speak) but casters in plate, i'm wanting to say crusaders and some form of paladin was just that (usually with just holy though). they typically had a spell that increased their armor.
i know ultima online has issues with casters in mage-plate in that they were nearly unkillable. i can see the theory of trying to prevent that.
@Jairone
the idea of someone in full plate running equal to someone in cloth or leather is horrible too. it depends on the era of armor we're talking about too. which i wouldn't mind seeing an evolution of gear over the years. plate can be bulky, heavy and not really a good thing for a melee person to have. over time the techniques can improve and new metal can be found which can make the metal thinner but still as strong.
