Posts made by TheRippyOne

@target hm. that...may be right. Or I might be conflating them - if so, I am feeling kind of embarrassed >.> still, losing memory slots is a notable negative. goes and does more research

@codetsilon Probably. may also increase the aggro range/rating of hostile critters, cause I look like something to be picked on XD I dunno - there's going to be some nasty malus going on with a 6 Strength.

@agracore A non-human build that doesn't prioritize the Affinity stat is...very hard. 2 18's, 1 14(ifs), 3 10's is probably the best you can manage.

But it's their powers that need the synergy, to make up for that last lack of power that their stats don't give them. Both are important, but are very different.

which tends to railroad choices. XD
Hellfire Infernals gain power in combat over time - the longer the fight, the more powerful they grow, which fits well with their potential 21 constitution. Blood, as mentioned before, gain power by hurting others ("sucking blood"). Shadow are interesting - they are empowered at night - which means they have to make the most of that time, and plan around finishing before dawn.

Beasts are more varied, and based around temporary transformations. Nhee gain health regen and status effects on melee attacks - they're the Infernals direct opposition. Erw gain spell reflection and speed attacks and evasion - a major role expander. Cha gain speed, crits, agility, and dodge - it's the easiest power to use, and the most universally useful. Udo empower their groups, gives a speed boost, and enhances everyone's command and control powers. A solo Udo is almost as badly off as a Shadow in sunlight - but their boost makes them exceptionally useful in any raid, dungeon, or party settings - especially if multiple Udo stack their bonuses in a single party.

@kellewic Actually, from what's been revealed about the "malus" associated with sub-10 Intelligence, it's a LOT worse than the D&D penalties. the Malus for intelligence eats Study slots and knowledge experience - effectively, it takes longer to get enough points to learn a skill, and you can't learn as many skills at once.

Now, in one sense, this is nothing - so, it takes longer, so what? on the other hand, it can also be very frustrating, I'd imagine. I assume all of the other 5 malus are like this - something that, technically, doesn't actually stop your progress, but does make some aspect of the game notably more painful.

And you do get the D&D issues as well - like bad spell casting and mp regen for low intelligence.

The 4 18's, 2 6 is an example that I pull out because it's easy math that displays the basic inequity (not that there is anything wrong with it. assymetrical set-ups are fun.

However, it's not a bad build for a wizard that doesn't care about Strength and Dexterity...assuming you can handle the resulting malus XD

@agracore Humans start out with 120 creation points, everyone else starts out with 100 creation points and one affinity - the affinity makes that one stat cheaper to buy. To buy a stat up to 18, you need 30 points normally, but only 18 points in the affinity - fairly useful, right?

basic math does note the problem, though - a human can buy 4 18's (30x4=120), while non-humans can't (18+3x30=108 - 8 points more than the non-humans get). The special powers of each race are meant to make up for this, and mostly do, but you need to use them right. A Blood demon gains nothing if they don't do damage, for example (as far as I can tell) - so having one as a healer, or a non-combat support, is a "waste" of their power. You can still do it, of course, free will and all that, but it's not a great idea from a mechanics stand point.

@codetsilon well, sure, but the affinity falls 8 points short of balance, and the abilities fit some play styles better than others (And some scenarios better than others. No Shadow wants to be caught out in daylight, for example). Much easier to just define what you want to be all the time. Or, at least, that was my thinking.

@kralith I think that you have a pretty good point - a pvp'er here for glory is going to be a very happy camper, since execution and tactics are going to be so critical...though hopefully they don't actually camp 9_9 XD I think Fibs has a point too, though - This game's balance does discourage those looking to bully or loot - unlike most games, attacking a new player is actually risky still, while there is very limited loot and xp to acquire, hurting the viability of grouping for a many-on-one hunt to swing the odds. I mean, it will still probably happen - there are sufficient jerks in the world at large XD but not to the degree found in some games. (personally, I like the glory pvp'ers. they generally seem to handle losses gracefully...about 50% of the time XD but, seriously, if someone is dueling for the challenge, I love having them around)

@fibs kinda - we know some things - like, the dev's believe that 20 in a stat, and the bonuses that come from that level, are "worth" the costs (which are demonstratively hefty) - we know that 18's get us 20 after some skill tinkering; we know that anything under 10 is "bad" - and we have some idea about "how bad" thanks to their discussions of the malus related to sub-10 Intelligence - losing study slots is a fairly big deal, not gaining as much knowledge in some circumstances is nasty, plus whatever it costs in terms of spell strength and mana recovery that naturally come from that low stat. Further, since the expense of different points varies, we can make some statements about how the devs value different scores - going from 6 to 10 takes 10 points. Going from 10 to 15 - 1 extra level - has the same weight. I assume that this is more an expression of how bad the malus are, as much as anything (and that the malus at 6-8 is notably worse than it is at 9, by the devs thinking) - the devs are convinced it is worth it to get away from those penalties to spring for the extra expense. Extrapolating may not produce the "right" answer - but it isn't out of line to think all of the stats have similar downsided of some sort - downsides that demonstratively makes some integral part of the game much harder. Conversely, 6-10 is also weighted the same as 15-18 - one level less, which almost certainly means that the devs consider the upgrades are not only base value good, but that the chance at the bonus is worth it. the same 10 points only accounts for 2.5 levels going from 18 on up, but they all weigh the same - each point over 18 is worth twice as much as 9-15. in one sense, the devs don't care when you get the bonuses, just that you can. In another, you could argue they think every point is as good as getting that bonus - which may mean the bonus grows on a point basis, and thus all of these values are really really good when viewed through that benefit. a third interpretation is that the benefit from a stat increase is asynchronous - that 10 to 11 get's you 5% better damage, but 15 to 16 gets you a 7.5% boost, and 18 get's you a 10% boost, and ignores the actual benefit of the bonus.

Further, you can make extrapolations of range - we don't know how "good" an 18 is, but we know that 21 is fantastic, because it tops the natural chart, that 25 is absurd, since it's the top, period, and that a maximum temporary buff is probably no better than 5, if you include multiple sources, since the devs tell us that getting from a 20 to a 25 by these sources is hard.

We can thus extrapolate that 5 points difference is major - not in a quantitative way - we can't say "go up 5 points net you 50% bonus damage" - but we can make a qualitative statement that 5 points are a noticeable difference - one that the devs felt was significant enough as to make acquiring it difficult. using those factors, you can say that, if 10 is "normal," 15 is probably "fairly good," 18 is "quite good," 20 is "exceptional," and 25 is "the best"

you can thus make a statement like "A quite good spell booster, can reasonably raise a stat by 2-3 points, taking a 14, that is decent, into a 16-17, which is good" - which is where my assertion that "the spell booster jack of all trades was an excellent all-arounder" came from.

I could be wrong, of course. Logic is, of course, the way to go wrong with certainty XD but it isn't just a castle in the air, but grounded in what information we do have.

To use Suruq's first build (above), we can makes some basic general statements - they aren't going to miss often, and they are going to evade often, and crits will be fairly common for them. they aren't going to be particularly powerful attacking or casting - they are much better geared to archery, preferably with a very fast bow or throwing weapons to maximize the number of times they hit and get a crit - but they can also dodge tank with some success, depending on how they re-skill, and they can take on a role as a secondary caster or dps by relying on a heightened crit rate, and use their perception to make up for lower accuracy but higher damage skill moves, if they make the appropriate re-skills for their passives (Assuming those are things). Those secondary build options may cause some difficulty, especially if they go for the high risk moves, with their mana economy, due to the moderate recovery rate from their average Intelligence, but potions and gear might cover that gap sufficiently. As I said, not a bad build, and a pretty solid generalist.

to put in a last word - the devs have put a significant emphasis on how a newbie and a vet are on a similar playing field - among other things, this implies that the stat selection is a huge element in any character's abilities (And nothing you do in the game matters as much as how you built in creation, mechanics-wise. The only other factor is skill in execution). I can think of 2 sources where you can get more stats - the skill tree, limit 2 per, and a god blessing, which looks like a once in a lifetime occurrence, period. The devs are balancing very hard around the starting character, and making these stats the critical value in their calculations - no gear, as fair as I can determine, affect stats directly - their focus are on affecting skills and effects, instead - derived values that are easier to control and have less overarching reach. in as much as anything is going to matter, these stats, and how you deploy them, are this game's king maker. The rest of the game is using them well (or not).

So, yeah, I could be overstating the value of working out stat arrays, and talking about how to apply them efficiently, in the absolute sense. maybe 18 only have a 10% benefit over a 10 - not likely, but sure; doesn't matter - The devs are still signalling that nothing else will give a bonus anywhere close to that - so, relatively speaking, this stuff is still critical, and worth discussing, even if we don't quite know what we are really saying.

@myux Honestly, there are several ways to make gear that is "equally as good" as starting armor, but creates benefits in various ways that make them more valuable to certain individuals - the trick is properly balancing these benefits and drawbacks - how much bonus damage to Martial Arts skills is worth losing 1 point of damage reduction (not much for an in and out style of fighting, quite a bit for a brawler) - is a movement buff worth additional cooldown at some point? (probably not, though it could be worth it for tanks and some warfare users favoring big drawn-out moves, or mages that play with DoT fields or kiting)

Getting this sort of thing is stupidly hard, and it rarely is "right" every time (a light DoT bonus based on initial strike damage might be weak for one player, and exceedingly useful to another, based on things like playstyle and skill choices, for example, before you get into the question of "what's an equivalent de-buff to balance it"), but it seems like the devs are devoted to this sort of balancing for gear - if they get it "right enough" then the gear will certainly be worthwhile, "neutral rate" though it may be by some standard.

Exceptional job on this one! I find it interesting that Udo are running highest (if not by much) - I would have figured the Cha would take that position, being a more open build option. I also find the preponderance of Infernals interesting - half the demons are looking to melee, it seems...going to be interesting to see if nightly Shadow ganking is going to change those figures once we hit Alpha proper...

I also figured that Humans would be more popular - the freedom to be "whatever" is a hard thing to give up, and the better creation points is a notable advantage, even without any racial powers.

@myux Yeah, I can see Tartaros being similar to Eve Online - especially a quadrant with a lot of small pirate groups hanging around XD "Kill!" "Mine!" "no, MINE!" "GANKER!" "Alls Fair!" "Mine!" "Double Ganker!" [lots of expletives] XD

@suruq Yup - that's a perfectly acceptable build - And it looks like a solid generalist, to me.

though, Be Aware, once you set your stats, they are permanent. You can juggle around the +2 stats from the skill trees when you're in a Resting Phase, but no one has mentioned anything about re-spec'ing a character's stats in game, though many players have asked for it.

Of course, if you are in the alpha or beta tests, I expect there will be several character wipes/restarts as game builds get tested, so you'll get to try things out.

Also, I think you've hit on something most people will agree with - dump stat'ing Charisma. It has the least benefit to the most builds, unless it's the critical component to the build, and no one really understands what the devs mean about "changing conversation options" - but we do know that every character, regardless of stats, will be able to do nearly everything, so these changes can't be too critical - or, at least, that's the current thinking.

I want to see how far you can go as a pacifist - so, an epic wander is going to commence XD High Perception, Dex, Charisma, and moderate intelligence and constitution. Strength is the dump stat XD

@codetsilon no one knows yet XD and the results are likely to be tinkered with during beta. if no one ever uses a 21, the devs might make the difference more tempting, for example

@codetsilon yup 3 18's, and 3 10's, are an option, and frankly are a decent build - you are powerful on your chosen path, but "okay" doing the opposite as well, in case your standard stuff isn't working for some reason. it

I also recall the statement that a newbie should be able to jump in and challenge a pro - not win, necessarily, but at least have a chance. It seems to me, that having a 1 on 4 fight, let alone a 1 on ZOMBIE HORDE fight, especially when the 1 person is a newbie, is unlikely to be anything other than a curbstomp battle. I'm not sure what this means, but something tells me Zombies, Pets, and any other Summons, are going to be notably weaker than we the players in some fashion, even if they are quite adequate for PvE.

@target it's too darn late - for some reason I read you having 2 15s, not 2 14s

medre

XD

@codetsilon well, 18 is the basic max for all stats in humans - can't buy them higher. to get to 20, humans need to get the bonus 2 points out of each stat's skill tree (or use a potion or something for a temporary boost). On the non-human side, the sad truth is that a 20/21, even in your Affinity stat, is actually really expensive, and those races don't have a lot of character points to spare XD you can do it, but it can get very painful, and tends to lock you into certain roles. Which is fine, if that's how you want to play, but I felt it was important to note this on such options. The Human 4 18's build is generally a focus play, for example - you are one class, and are terrible outside of it.

as to why I was bothering with upping non-main stats - well, again, the 4 18's is all about main stats and ignoring the not useful ones, and you can totally use that build style. BUT the devs have already mentioned that some enemies have immunities - building a straight fighter or straight mage will cause issues if the enemies prove to be immune to your main damage skills. Having at least a 10 in something off the main stat line of the build means you have another option for dealing damage at a reasonable rate, if you absolutely have to. The other reason I emphasized having at least 1 10 (or 1 8 in a non-human, and going for the 2 int skill points) is because your knowledge points gained get nerfed if your intelligence is under 10 - and let's face it, while gaining new skills slowly isn't a terrible thing, it can be a TERRIBLY ANNOYING thing XD if you don't care about it taking 40% longer to level a skill, a 6 int may be a decent idea. Lastly, most stats have secondary effects. both Strength and Constitution affect carrying capacity, dexterity gives movement bonuses and dodge chance, perception contributes to critical hit rates (both for and against you), and charisma gives you additional conversation options and luck. In general, avoiding having a 6 is a really good idea, just because of these secondaries; a wizard may not care about health - nothing hits them - but everyone cares about not being able to move because they are carrying too much stuff. In my min/max wizard, I picked constitution as the like 4th 18, based on the need to carry more than my magic bathrobe and stick of smiting XD similarly, since mana fuels all skills, having a 6 Intelligence means having a much slower mana regeneration rate - which means you don't get you use you Scythe Of Death Ultimate Attack! (or whatever) as often - a problem, especially in long battles.

@suruq Affinity is a base reduction in point cost to buy that particular stat up. The +3 is how much above base line stats you can push that stat - all stats have a base maximum of 18, so a +3 means you can push that stat to 21.

As to the other - every stat starts at 6, and costs nothing at that level. going to "7" requires you to spend 3 character creation points (of which you start with 120, or 100, based on race) - UNLESS it's your Affinity stat - then going to "7" only costs 2. More broadly, it takes 30 character points to push a stat from 6 to 18 UNLESS it's the affinity stat; then, it only takes 18 - effectively saving you 12 points, or, in more concrete terms, enough points to push a "6" stat to a "10" with some to spare - very useful stuff.

If you don't buy up a stat, you will start the game with a 6 in that stat - the malus is calculated in terms of having a 6. Most calculations assume "10" as "normal" - having neither malus or benefit. while I can't say how it will work exactly, think of having a 6 in the same ways as having a 40% failure rate attached to anything you do with that stat. If this skill does 10 damage normally, it only does 6 for you, and it only lasts 60% as long, or just flat out fails to work 40% of the time. A 6 in a stat makes things MUCH harder on you.

@target That's what I came to hear! that's pretty cool - though, you over spent by 2 points. But, seriously, I can totally see that - "look into my eyes! you cannot look away, you cannot move! all you can do" - dagger sinks home "is die!" cue mad laughter XD it's some good stuff!