Posts made by Myux

hewwo >w<

apparently your functional skill limit will be dependant on how exactly knowledge works, and if theres a limit on that. id assume that if you explore every corner of the (RANDOMLY GENERATED) world then you're probably gonna have more than enough knowledge to level everything up, and that doesnt account for if theres repeatable methods to grind knowledge

@gothix said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

I would actually love that gear progression is horizontal, and means that "better" gear becomes more customizable.

So just a crude example (I know stats will not be distributed in this large amount, exact numbers aren't the point here):

• Basic gear item: 10 stats, you can only put all 10 in same stat (all 10 to INT, or all 10 to DEX etc).

• Medium level gear item: also 10 stats, but you can now put these 10 stats into 2 attributes of your choice equally (5 to INT and 5 to CON for example)

• High level gear item: also 10 stats, but you can now distribute to 3 attributes of your choice and distribute how you like (for example (2 to INT, 3 to CON, 5 to CHA)

• Max level gear item: also 10 stats, but you can now distribute to any number of attributes you wan and how you want, total freedom (example, 2 CON, 2 INT, 1 DEX, 4 STR, 1 CHA, or however you want).

yeah thats the kinda progression im hoping for honestly. tho if certain builds have dump stats that would result in essentially a vertical curve. i.e. if INT is entirely useless for physical damage builds then theres no downside to being able to take more points out of it.

@kralith said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

@myux, @fibs Literally a PVPer plays for the fame not for the item.
And fame in its special way will they get.
We never should forget, there will be things like Prestige and Alignments, there is much space for having a goal about being famous.

The loot the PVPer can get is just a plus for their effort.

why would you pvp for fame. das weird. all i pvp for is either enjoying good mechanics and competing against other players, or challenging myself. drama is always a big plus, too. except if the games horizontal progression isn't designed properly and isn't balanced well (which is a very easy mistake to make) then only players who play for pvps sake will play. thats not the majority of an MMOs playerbase. there needs to be a reason why more nervous or casual players would wanna dabble into pvp, otherwise the pvp community will just be a circlejerk and there'll be no one new or interesting to fight.

@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

The problem is that people are coming in here expecting a typical RPG with a beginning and an end

im pretty sure literally no one goes into an MMO expecting a proper end, especially one that calls itself a sandbox everywhere, so im not entirely sure where youre seeing these people.

@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

It seems some players are literally unable to comprehend this and no matter how many times you tell them, it bounces off and they keep going like you said nothing, i.e. they are utterly delusional.

have you considered maybe 1. youre misunderstanding people or 2. youre wording your opinions poorly/vaguely

@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

But eventually, they'll play the game and be stunned by the reality of it. And if that chases off the most toxic PKers, good, the game will be better without them. Only people who actually like PVP and/or are actually good at it will remain, rather than frail egotists who need a gear / headcount superiority to make up for skill.

the playerbase falling isn't a good thing. the less people there are, the more static the game is, and the more boring it is. then all of the PvPers who enjoy the game will leave out of boredom. this isn't a singleplayer game, there arent magically people who you can play with if no one else wants to play it.

i dont quite remember the term for it but there is a HUGE factor in the popularity of MMOs being how many people are playing it. if theres more people playing, the playercount curve will keep escalating. whereas if theres less people playing, the playercount curve will take a huge dive and the game wont be able to afford its own servers. you sure as hell can't play a circlejerk mmo if the servers are shut down, i can guarentee you that.

your issue from what im seeing is that you consider your opinions to be widely accepted among a large portion of mmo players when it just isnt the case. around 95% of players will never consider any of this shit and just wanna play the damn game and do what they wanna do. if theres no reason for them to attempt to start pvp, theres less of a chance for them to bother. that's all im saying and quite frankly im not sure how you manage to misunderstand it so hard that you feel the need to insult everyone

@jozef said in GamesCom Here I Come! And You?:

@prometheus said in GamesCom Here I Come! And You?:

while I'm not busy talking with some publisher and so on.

I understand that making this game requires money and professional help, but please don't let any publisher change your vision for the game. This game doesn't need to be the next generic, caters to all kind, mmorpg. All that matters is that you and your team can make a decent living and can make the game you want to make.

PS: Köln is a three hour drive by car for me, one way, so I won't be joining you.

That isn't what people in the industry uh, talk about, when they're just chatting casually. Not everything is a business proposition, especially at a fun convention. Let the mans talk with some other professionals.

@warpuppy said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

I guess I don't see the whole "must get awesome gear" thing as a big deal since I'm primarily a PvE guy.

Yeah, if the longevity and population of the game wasn't something to worry about I wouldn't mind gear and other items being unimportant either. This is only really a topic worth your time if you're actively wanting to help the PvP/PK scene.

@loxreaten said in NO tank mages:

Dude. It's a sandbox game. Theres obviously a tank mage build

not necessarily. sandbox dont mean literally anything can happen. plus the definition of tank can be surprisingly flexible so really it depends on what OP considers a tank

@fibs So you're just gonna... try and insult me despite not having anything to add to the conversation. aite. nice to see the pveer scene is getting nice and toxic already

@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

Gosh, it's almost like this isn't an RPG just because it's "an MMO" or something.

I always love seeing all these would be RPG experts running their mouths about "the reason to PK" and other things they clearly don't really understand. >_>

So are you gonna tell me why you think having an incentive to PvP would be a bad idea or you just gonna make empty aggressive posts.

@target said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

@myux said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

One of the key aspects to making an MMO fun to play and progress in is the need to get stronger. The way MMOs get the player to move forward and experience new content is generally through the promise of getting stronger. The less power that you get from bettering your gear or skills, the less incentive there is. The less incentive there is to get stronger, the less content the player wants to do. Making rewards meaningful is incredibly important for the longevity of a game and I dearly hope the devs keep that in mind.

Guild Wars 1 had almost non-existant gear progression, and in 2 of the 3 Guild Wars 1 campaigns, you would hit max level before leaving the tutorial/beginner island. At that point your main progression was acquiring new skills, not unlike Fractured. That game was successful enough to spawn Guild Wars 2 which was a huge and expensive project. You don't need to be constantly increasing in power to have satisfying progression.

Now, in a PvP perspective, PKing in a game like this is designed around risk vs reward. Use more valuable stuff you can potentially lose, and you'll do better. With a nonexistent power gap, both the risk AND the reward is gone. PKing is no longer dangerous and as a result its no longer tense or interesting

This is assuming the only reason to kill people is for their gear. Silkroad Online(and I believe Archeage) had a merchant/caravan mechanic where player merchants could buy goods from one city and would transport them on camels and elephants to another city. The farther the distance between cities, the more they would make. Other players could flag themselves as thieves and try to kill the merchants and steal their loot so that they could sell it themselves. Silkroad Online didn't have full loot, but the risk of loss could still be tense.

In Fractured, I imagine people carting around expensive resources aren't going to feel the game isn't tense enough for them. A gulid that has successfully conquered a city and taken it as their own aren't going to feel unrewarded because because their enemies didn't have gear that they wanted. Someone who gets satisfaction from PKing everyone they see and earning their reputation as a PKing asshole is still going to have that satisfaction regardless of the gear they can loot. You don't need gear power progression to have rewarding PvP.

GW1 afaik didn't have a PK system and was a lot more relaxed and casual than other MMOs at its time, so its progression system flowed well with that. In a hardcore PK game like this game on the PK worlds, it wouldn't flow nearly as well because generally PK competition is designed around progression and money and whatnot.

And I know from plenty of personal experience that people don't need an incentive to PK or PvP, my main PvP MMO right now barely rewards it at all, but its community and decent combat mechanics make it fun. Issue is that I worry about the population of PvPers and PKing targets. Incentives to PvP get people into it, which i stated in the OP.

@kralith "gear that's hard to get" is all I need (durability helps too), but i'm not certain on if that will actually be the case in execution. All of the developer notes put emphasis on how the game "isn't a grind", which could mean the supposed difficult to obtain materials would actually be a simple task for someone in endgame.

Also, I understand perfectly what you're trying to say, but you're assuming too many things about how the game will be designed when everything is uncertain currently. There's no way to know if anything will actually be rare and valuable or not, because the devs could make a poor estimation.

and i could do without you pretending i'm an idiot when it's just you not considering the wider picture. Developers aren't robots, they can and will make mistakes. All my post is about is a request for them to be careful around a delicate mechanic. So chill with the passive aggression.

@kralith Gear not being valuable isn't a good thing. If all gear is easy to obtain and only needed in certain situations, then there's no market or incentive for them. If all of the progression is done through knowledge that you can't lose or sell, there's no longer an incentive for anything once someone gets as far as they want to.

@kralith I am making assumptions, but I think it's not overly strange to say that knowledge won't be a resource that's tradeable, or a kind of currency that would be beneficial to obtain after you have everything you want. If nobody carries anything of ACTUAL value that can be traded or killed for, there's no reward to PKing, which harms the game in the long run.

@muker That also means gear would have no value.

@muker The knowledge system wont be enough, as it's mostly for skill points. Once you have the skills you want, theoretically there's not much else you can do to make yourself stronger, as you can't lose skills. You can lose gear, which makes it more valuable and worth fighting people for. But it requires value in the first place.

@muker That isn't beneficial to the longevity of the game. Skill should always matter the most, but if gear is worthless it will make a lot of content worthless.

SO numerous times the devs have talked about how theres no progression system where you get significantly stronger, so theres no overly large gear/playtime gap. This can be seen in the kickstarter preview and the front page of the main website, among others. Now that seems like a good thing for accessibility and to avoid the horrible "first 50 hours" curse* that nearly all MMOs have, but if not executed properly, it would hurt the game a lot more than helping it.

*i am referring to how most MMOs are designed entirely around endgame and as a result starting out a new MMO is generally annoying as hell

There isn't much information at all about how exactly the gear system works, but the devs have repeatedly stated about how you can be competitive the instant you make your character, which worries me. Minimizing the power gap is a good idea, but if there's nearly no power gap between a new player and an experienced player, that will hurt the game significantly imo.

As an example, if someone can make a new character then they fight someone who is less skilled than them if they play smart, I consider that a well designed power gap. If this skilled player on a new character can fight someone around their skill level and still win, that's worrisome. At that point progression will be pointless.

One of the key aspects to making an MMO fun to play and progress in is the need to get stronger. The way MMOs get the player to move forward and experience new content is generally through the promise of getting stronger. The less power that you get from bettering your gear or skills, the less incentive there is. The less incentive there is to get stronger, the less content the player wants to do. Making rewards meaningful is incredibly important for the longevity of a game and I dearly hope the devs keep that in mind.

Now, in a PvP perspective, PKing in a game like this is designed around risk vs reward. Use more valuable stuff you can potentially lose, and you'll do better. With a nonexistent power gap, both the risk AND the reward is gone. PKing is no longer dangerous and as a result its no longer tense or interesting. PKers bugger off, and the risk of PvEers going outside of their comfort zone is gone, thus leaving only the reward which will no longer be much of a reward.

Gear ABSOLUTELY needs to have an impact. Rewarding the player for exploring with knowledge points will not be enough, as you can't lose or trade knowledge. Having a game without typical levels and whatnot is absolutely fine (and is what i prefer honestly) but if the benefit of getting everything else is too little, it will harm the game a lot more in the long run. My request is to make sure there are significant rewards for all playstyles. If all someone wants to do is combat, they should have options to work for, and the promise of power is what drives that.

keep in mind full loot is only for demons, if you're a human you don't need to worry about that.

now, the idea behind full loot is a very old one, games are generally designed around it so unless you REALLY screw up you're never really gonna be in a position where you lose many many hours of work. full loot pvp scenarios are designed around risk vs reward. keep anything you dont wanna lose in your bank and only bring what you need. bring more if youre willing to risk more for more gain. a good example of a game doing this well in the modern day is runescape imo.

it'll be scary, but the more stuff you risk, the more stuff youre gonna get. living as a demon is gonna be a balance of what stuff you wanna bring on you without bringing too much stuff of worth. play smart and get rich. and keep in mind this isnt purely you losing everything, other players are gonna get your items. that means you can also get other players items.

@agracore that will be the main thing going on in demon home planet. its just gonna be people constantly getting into drama and trying to kill each other, as small scale factions or larger. its the same way in every pvp mmo.

thats...an incredibly specific thing to be mad about? why is character build customization an issue? also im pretty sure this game isn't gonna be a trinity role game, tanks might not really exist as they do in WoW+clones.