Posts made by Manaia

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I rather enjoy the system of no repairs, it puts more emphasis on the materials/reagents rather than the currency. Unless the repairs work like Conan Exiles and you use the materials/reagents required to craft it. That'd be a good form of repair - but not like WoW where you just throw currency at it.

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yay! Congrats to all who won!

Daily message post

@Jetah We'd best ready ourselves with the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!
If I see a rabbit, I can't assume it's an ordinary rabbit! It's the mouse foul beast I'd ever set eyes on!

@Tuoni Yeah, keeping good things like that a secret is next to impossible these days. Even back in the days of early-Internet and before, secrets eventually get out. People are TERRIBLE at telling secrets.

You know what they say: Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead.

@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:

@Gothix If gear is human readable or we can inspect other players, then you cannot keep anything as a secret. Furthermore, the streaming and video culture what we have in games nowadays also takes care of that everything can be analyzed afterwards. So someone needs to fight once against the team #1 and all the builds are revealed.

This, exactly! If character/gear inspection is available, all it takes is time to see what skills the opponents are using.

@KairosVal said in Should the animals kill each other:

Something a little bit like that kind of "virtual ecology" has been done in a historic verison of Ultima Online. It did not go well.

I actually considered mentioning that too! It was a fun watch years ago when I watched it.

@Razvan said in Concerns related to the attributes:

What competitive scene do you guys believe Fractured will have?

This will be a good idea for a new thread with a poll!

• I'd imagine there will be a strong end-game PvP; whether from mechanics or hosted by the players themselves. Like having arena matches where players give the governing town an entry fee.
• There will be world bosses and I believe dungeons were in the kickstarter, so that'll likely be the PvE end game. It really all depends on how that's done though to really say how that will shape the competitive scene. Obviously speed running/killing the dungeons/bosses will be most effective though - but if it's not spamming it wouldn't be required.
• Depending on how world bosses are looted, it will probably be highly contested by multiple guilds and will have both PvE and PvP interactions during those contested periods of time where the boss is fought over.
• There will very much likely be a trade and wealth end-game and competitive scene within that aspect as well. This will probably be more dominant with Beastmen since they don't have to worry about PvP very often, if at all. Just competing with resources with other players.

As for meta... with the number of skills and defensive mechanics we'll have, I doubt there's going to be anything other than vague archetype builds for casual pve and small scale pvp.

I'm confident there will be online sources that have popular builds, and great deal of the playerbase will gravitate towards that once it's known. This is done in pretty much any multiplayer game; especially games with stats and gear. They'll just Google "Fractured int demon" or something. Until the online sources are known though, yeah there will be general playing around with builds. I'm just as confident that builds will be out and available before the game's even released though.

For zvz, guilds will have their own quite strict builds as far as items and abilities are concerned...

Leading people to be "forced into a build" - things I've mentioned in this thread
If there are free attribute changes, it'll be easier to "force" the stat archetype as well. Changing skills just requires the knowledge and a camp fire, less imposing on the player.

...because the shotcaller needs to know what each group can do and their cooldowns, but it doesn't really matter if a particular DPS has 16 or 21INT.

Sounds like this is a case where changing stats isn't as important or needed?

Also, it may very well depend if the DPS has 16 or 21 INT, some spells use the primary attribute as cooldown reduction. There will be optimal breakpoints, which means once the breakpoint is hit you might be able to enchant your gear with another stat instead! Or you might need the highest INT AND all the cooldown reduction gear.

Killteams and hardcore pve are probably the only areas where people would follow hot builds religiously and respec as much as they can.

"respeccing" is not the same as changing attributes, to me. Respec is short for respecialization, which is changing your abilities, I 100% agree with your statement! Specialization doesn't change your characters being - they can't change what they're "born" (character creation) with. I'm not sure if you consider "respeccing" to include stats or not though. In Dungeons and Dragons it'd be wizards memorizing different spells (like the campfire in Fractured); in WoW it'd be changing the talent trees, in Diablo 3 it'd be changing your skills/passives and Paragon points. None of these change your class and/or attribute distribution though.

@Tuoni Yeah, there was a lot of information there! Sorry!

• There were some dailies (fishing, I remember) implemented in TBC and others implemented in WotLK, but the daily boom was in MoP and those were the way to gain reputation instead of doing the grinds. They've changed since then, though when the MASSIVE amounts of dailies were put in, it was for that.
  *LFG/LFR was a necessary evil I think; still was bad for the social aspect of the game.
• Garrison stuff - no need for any more discussion here
• WoW Classic I was in a highly competitive guild on the Dragonmaw US server, we had Ragnaros first kill. At least one priest was required to have divine spirit, one paladin required blessing of kings, no shadow priests allowed (they had to respec holy to raid), and so on. Other competitive guilds were the same; some even requiring their priests to be dwarves for Fear Ward.
• When the QoL of faction changes came out, a lot of competitive Alliance Guilds rerolled to Horde because their racials were better. This through off the faction balance even more than it was. It severely crippled Dragonmaw Alliance's side to maintain competitive raiders. All this for a QoL change for faction changes.

Regarding all builds being the same/pretty much the same, it's very boring for me. I've played Diablo 3 competitively for several seasons and the funnest part for me is a fresh level 70 and filling in the gear slots before you become class clone #564632 with all the same gear, stat priorities, abilities, etc. People use the builds and have no idea why and how, just because it's the popular build. Some builds are just outright NOT fun, but because they're good people (including myself) play them to remain competitive.

We have to remember that build swaps offers guilds a lot of flexibility what it comes for raiding and is for sure used a LOT of more to good rather than bad.

Requiring a priest to have divine spirit was good for 39 people and possibly bad for one

If we want the demons play this game, then the answer is yes. Usually those players are the most hardcore and competitive players.

Wouldn't the most hardcore and competitive players know how the stats work and interact and would be the ones who LEAST need the hand holding of attribute rerolls? I can't remember if it was you or someone else who said that if players make the mistake and not understand the stats then they should be able to reroll them otherwise might quit the game in frustration.

META is the thing especially in Tartaros and I would not want to try take that away from them.

The meta will still exist, and it will exist in variants of str/dex/int based builds. There shouldn't be a need to reroll attributes for this. And the competitive scene will be better imo without this because the people with more insight and understanding to the game will have the better character builds.

To wrap this up, as I'm getting older I'm less competitive, but I'm still competitive and generally don't like to play games casually. If I'm looking at this from a casual point of view, I can see how most reasons about free rerolls being a lot more appealing.

Edit: I do play games less competitively and here and there, like Hearthstone. I use my own meme decks and try to get them to work, that's how I do that competitively - it's mostly against myself to see if I can get something to work. Playing the same 54% win-rate decks is also boring, and right now it's boring when 70% or more are the same Demon Hunter decks

They should! There should be factions of animals/tribes/etc that are hostile to each other. It's always weird seeing predators and prey right next to each other. Even if the predators aren't hungry/murderous, that doesn't mean the prey want to just hang out with them

@Tuoni Hmm...I wonder if end-game will involve seasons, or something around that. Then instead of once every specified duration of time (1 month in this example) it would be one reroll per account (not character imo) season. Which, can be a month, or quarter, or every major cycle that changes a bunch of stuff like Diablo 3; no set time per season but they still exist. One month might be too frequent; though it all depends on how often content is changed.

Speaking of content, if a build is butchered badly enough or significant changes are made that alters the gameplay and feel, I'm all for the free reroll. In the event that content are ADDED though and not CHANGED, which makes another spec more appealing without negatively impacting your character, how do you feel about that? I think when a meta eventually forms it'll be a very boring experience if we get free rerolls every month or so and everyone just uses the same build(s). It's been my experience that people in general are too lazy to make their own build and just goes online to find one that works, and they want the top, regardless of if the next 10 builds are 1-10% weaker...which is very much inconsequential. Hmm...I think I poked a hornets nest with this thought process.

Will it add QoL changes? Absolutely, you've and others made that clear. And I know it will too, but QoL isn't always for the best interest. I'm going to use WoW as a baseline for these examples due to personal experience and hope that you also have those experiences due to its popularity!

• Dailies: Give people an easier time to get reputation (instead of grinding) and some money - this then turned into "obligatory content" that people groaned through doing.
• LFG/LFR: Took a huge social aspect out, most runs don't say anything and if they do they risk being kicked for the luwls. Or god forbid someone critique something. It basically turns into a single player game where the other players are pretty much NPCs. They're also a checklist of dailies/weeklies, or they were. So they were obligatory, you had people who didn't -want- to do them but felt the need to do it.
• Garrisons in WoD. Through the economy out of whack BIG TIME. "required" using the phone app. "required" all your alts to have it and maintain it. If you didn't, you were significantly behind in power, economy, and flexibility. Some were pressured, either by other people or themselves, to level up alts to get in on this value. A LOT of this was personal though just because of how much value there was to it.
• Dual Spec: In raids people felt forced into using specific builds, maybe they did PvP most the time so they required this in order to raid. Swapping specs got expensive, and they were "forced" to do it to get a spot...ESPECIALLY because this existed. They couldn't use the excuse that they couldn't go back to a trainer to manually respec each time...because dual spec existed. If they were a druid that enjoyed using multiple PvP builds due to their flexibility, they were screwed even harder if they required a manual build for raiding...or having to scrap one of their PvP builds. Some people also were annoyed that a TRI spec, QUAD spec, or even unlimited...give a little and they want/take a lot.

Jay Allen Brack, the current CEO of Blizzard, even has a quote "You think you do, but you don't" in regards to QoL changes. He's been right about this, and he's been wrong about this (i.e. Classic servers.) Do we really want the potential of every demon PvPer having the same spec every cycle? Or every world boss killer to have the same build? To me, that sounds very boring and stale.

After this huuuuge thought process typed out as it happened, to re-address my first paragraph...I think I might only want a cash shop option or if they have major patches that CHANGES balance - not adds. And no normal cycle...unless that normal cycle changes the balance...which would be very chaotic having to reinvent/learn the wheel every. single. time.

Look forward to your feedback about this, and others should they jump in!

@Farlander said in Concerns related to the attributes:

@Manaia I'm sorry you feel you have to give in to peer pressure?

I don't feel I have to give in to peer pressure, never said I did.

I'm at an age no one is going to tell me what to do lol. Also no player is going to tell me how to play the game I have paid for.

Your age has nothing to do with how OTHER people act. The issue wasn't falling to peer pressure, it was being the recipient of it. Here's an example: "Farlander, I demand you play a dex based class to protect me in PvP!"
I just told you what to do and how to play the game you've paid for. I'm preeeeeeeeeeeetty sure you're not going to do it though

If it is that important to you to join such a guild I guess you will compromise. Otherwise I would have to tell them to take a hike and find another guild to join.

Sounds fair, 100% agreed!

Also I apologize I have actually not read every response in the thread. I tried to scan them to get the main points.

I don't blame you. I did that as well as missed a very critical one-liner that changed the ENTIRE conversations of page 3+. Sad times

@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:

@Manaia Damn you are getting triggered.

To make things easier, I'll agree with this. There are way too many back and forths going on in here it's making it difficult to focus on what's actually being said. So allow me to attempt wipe the slate clean and re-start discussion.

Your proposition:
"My main concern is that are we going to have a chance to reroll the attributes?"
There were stat point values though that was finished discussion early on.

Your supporting details:
"I am not asking to have a chance to change the points everytime I want to even I would not be against that either. Some kind of cooldown could be nice like once in the month or something like that."

I apologize if I missed supporting details, there was a lot of information to process while reading and the finer things of the discussion are easily missed to get the bigger scope. That being said, the supporting detail that you mentioned sounds fantastic and like we have some common ground!

My thoughts:
During the evolution of this thread (including my post just before this one) I've suggested three things for attribute change:

1. A gradual stat reallocation system that's a built in mechanic
2. Cash shop
3. The one-time use of stat allocation per character? Per account? Not sure, but this is limited so a "one-time use" so per character would be fine. As you've said, we'd have the option and what other people do with their characters shouldn't impact ours.

My question to you:
Can you go deeper into how you'd like to see it? Go into more details of the "Your supporting details" section that I mentioned. How often is too often? Any other mechanics involved, or just a simple interface "restat" button?

@Eurav said in Concerns related to the attributes:

@Manaia Let me start by saying my only post in this thread is:

@Eurav said in Concerns related to the attributes:

Pretty sure Jacopo mentioned in the last Q&A (or maybe the one before that), that everyone will get a free Attribute Reset and that Attribute Reset will be content of the Cash Shop. There will be a decent cooldown on the usage of that though

We will be able to get additional Attribute Points through gear and the Talent Tree but I think they hard cap at 25?

The only concerns I currently have about the system would be wether it is too simple and that the Attribute Points one currently gets might be a bit too many.

And I voted in the poll for a "More sandbox based" game, so I don´t know how you came to the conclusion that I support your view

Whoops, agreed! I was trying to rush on a time sensitive thing and wanted to post this...rant, for lack of a better word.
I thought I used the verbiage agreed/opposed instead of agreed with him and agreed with me; and then took your concerns with the system whether it would be too simple or not. Tuoni also asked you to expand on what this meant and you didn't reply - we were both I guess unsure on the exact meaning. In the end though, I misread and that's my fault.

@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:

You've clearly not read my response I made to Tuoni regarding mega guilds "forcing" you to respec to how they want. Or peer pressure amongst any group of friends to have someone fit the role they want. Tuoni basically said "I don't care, so it's not a real issue." Are you saying that too? That if it doesn't impact you it's not a real possibility?

What I don´t really get about this, and what I think @Tuoni also already said... if there is peer pressure from the group / guild it does not matter if you have attribute respec or not. You can "respec" by simply creating a new character. So if a guild only wants "properly specced people" having Attribute Point resets or not does not matter, they can still pressure anyone for going for a good specced character... If anything it makes it easier to respec, so that you can join the guild you want without having to throw away all the progress you made with your first character.

That was my suggestion to him, he can make an alt for the purposes of respecing. That doesn't impact the main character that was created, whether the individual character cares about said character vs a blank slate is up to them.

Coming back to the poll, I don´t like it. The poll seems laid out to "trick" people into picking the "More RPG based" option. Character choices, immersion, consistency... are important, and they can exist in a "More sandbox based" game as well as in a "More RPG based" game.

The intent wasn't to trick, the intent was to focus on two different genres and parts of their core.
I broke it down to RPG and Sandbox; I did not mention Sandbox MMORPG or MMORPG. Let's use one of the most popular Sandbox game: Minecraft. Minecraft vanilla has no skill system, you can literally be as flexible as you want for the job that needs to be done. The most that needs to be done is craft and equip the gear and you're good. While you can have RPG elements in Minecraft, it's not built around that. There are no alts in Minecraft, so it's important to have that flexibility as the game would be limited otherwise.

I have seen you arguing about the ability to respec multiple times a day / respeccing to specific situations and that that would kill that the joice of Attribute Points matters, that it would kill immersion and I totally agree. I don't think anyone argued for having that.

I want to have Attribute Resets, but in a way that it does not destroy the game. So I think the one we get for free at the start is good, because nobody knows what he is doing then and would probably like to reset later at some point and I also think we need respecs later on. I think getting one respec for every significant patch could be an option, or just having it in the Cash Shop with a long enough cool down like two months e.g.. Then they could ofc also have a limited time of usage, so that you can´t store / collect them and "abuse" them. Although that would probably be a very minimal problem, to "abuse" that mechanic every six months or so :D. You could of course also have a limit of how often you can respec your character. There are many ways to prevent a "daily / situational respec".

Agreed, the one respec would be fine since it's not a mechanic of normal gameplay...if that makes sense. And I've mentioned that I'm also fine with cash shops providing it. My views of the cash shops is it breaks the fourth wall of immersion anyway, so that's fine - it also provides more income to maintain/develop future content.

I think having the option to reset the Attribute Points in Fractured is pretty important. As people already have said, it is important if specific playstyles get nerfed, or you just want to change your playstyle to something else, because you got sick of your old one. I think creating a new character in that case would not be an option for many people. The devs already said that gathering knowledge about skills will surely take multiple months. Having to throw away all that progress and create a new character (I am sure some people would not have problems with that, but I think most would.), suck it up that I can't change my playstyle or maybe even quitting the game seem like rather bad options to me.

This boils down to personal preference too I'd suppose. I'm not one to make alts, if I do they generally only serve the purpose of supporting my main. Other people love alts and the leveling process, in here it'd be knowledge gathering. They obviously wouldn't have this issue. It may take multiple months to learn everything, yes, but how long will it take to learn the ~8 skills you're going to be using that "class" for? Probably a weekend at most? It took me two days to learn all the skills available in the latest test. That's with making a 5x5 plot, running back and forth to meet friends, and gathering significantly more materials than I should have. When the game is live, if it came to a point where I made a new character for a new "class" then I'd have gear already made and enchanted too, which would make the grind a lot easier once combat starts.

I think we'd agree on a lot of things on this issue, we just haven't had the chance to address each other about it

@Jetah Indeed! Many ninjas were commoners that had to make due with all sorts of weapons, such as farming tools! It allowed them to easily carry them as they're not "real weapons"

@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:

At the moment the reason looks like to be a character identity which is quite small roleplaying feature tbh, everyone can cherish their character's identity if they want to, however, I do not know why anyone should care about other players characters' identities.

You seem to think character identity is a minor issue and a thing for roleplayers. You thought I RP because I value character identity. Allow me to give you an example. Pick a movie or comic that you really like the immersion, if you even care about that. Now imagine every scene the character was different; it'd be a jarring experience and the directors/writers would probably be raked over the coals for their consistency being atrocious. My wife, who's a game never role played in her life, thinks character identity is important. But wait! That's impossible! She must be role playing then!

And since you keep insisting that so little people care about character identity, here's some bullshit I can spout: Even LESS people care about rerolling their main to do anything and everything whenever they want. All you've done in this thread is keep moving the goalpost or denying opposing ideas and claiming they don't count because "it doesn't affect many people." You keep thinking people care about OTHER PLAYER IDENTITY - that isn't the opposing points But hey, you'll just bury your head in the sand and keep pretending that's what it's about.

Here's a page I'll take from your book. Only a minor amount of players want to be lazy, have such poor planning, and doesn't want to be accountable for their decisions care about having this "QoL" issue (which let's be honest, it isn't one) added to the game. Did I channel you correctly? It looks like I did. And if you don't think so, I want you to seriously re-read all your responses in this thread from the opposing viewpoints. But I know you won't. And no, don't ask. I'm not role playing with you right now.

You're not even following this thread! More people oppose this idea than support; but hey, it's just a small amount of people. If you keep repeating that enough and shouting it from the rooftops, eventually it'll be true right? I know you won't bother to actually go through the thread, cause that goes against your belief of not having any accountability for your decisions, so I did it for you.

This is every poster in this thread.
Agrees with you (5 people): Tuoni, Roccandil, FibS (I think?), Farlander, Razvan
Agrees with me (8 people): Manaia, Mudz, Eurav, Mindark, Vaulks, Gibbx, KairosVal, dj35
Cash shop only options (3 people): Gothix, NeroulGB, PeachMcD
You probably will claim that people who know how math works are so few and it's for role players, so that doesn't count. 8 is greater than (more) 5. More people oppose your point of view in this thread.

To make things easier for you, the thread I made: https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/10551/what-kind-of-game-do-you-hope-fractured-will-be
There's a poll regarding this thread, but to get an easier viewpoint. 16 (59%) agree with me, 11 (41%) agree with you. There are pretty blue lines that show so you can see that if math is too hard for you to grasp.

So admit that you aren't all high and mighty, quit disregarding everyone who gives feedback opposing you, learn to take criticism and accept there can be opposing VALID ideas at any given time.

@Farlander said in Concerns related to the attributes:

Respecing, if available to everyone, has absolutely no bearing on another player.

You've clearly not read my response I made to Tuoni regarding mega guilds "forcing" you to respec to how they want. Or peer pressure amongst any group of friends to have someone fit the role they want. Tuoni basically said "I don't care, so it's not a real issue." Are you saying that too? That if it doesn't impact you it's not a real possibility?

@Tuoni Oh right! Yeah, that'd be something I'm really excited to see come to fruition!