Spell crafting
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Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
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@Meiki said in Spell crafting:
(...)On the other hand without crafting, the content regarding spells is finite and requires the developers to always fully work on every spell(...)
No? For the programmer (granted depending on the paradigm in use to an extent), the amount of work is the same at worst and very likely less. I am not going to explain or debate encapsulation, abstraction, polymorphism, inheritance and interfaces in detail here though. If you are familiar with object oriented programming, you know that anyway. And that is true for functional programming as well, though in a bit of a different way.
@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)If we were to craft spells then that 1200 could be limitless(...)
I think I realize how and why we are misunderstanding each other now. These 1200 spells are combinations. The 'basic' set that makes these 1200 spell-combos is less than 50. So, instead of having to unlock 1200 different spells, you now unlock 50 basics to then combine them to 1200+, but you suddenly lost 1150 'points of progress'.
That said, I have no influence on the developers or say in this, I am simply pointing out why I personally think it's not cost work efficient for them as indie developers.
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@Logain
we have 400 base with 3 tiers. that's 1200 total. in the game when it releases.we're saying if we could craft spells then that 400*3 could be infinite.
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@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)we have 400 base(...)
No, you don't. If you look at the description of these spells, they are what you define as 'crafted spells' in this thread. You'd be hard pressed to have 400 different base elements for spell crafting. If you could name more than 50, I'd be impressed.
@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)e're saying if we could craft spells then that 400*3 could be infinite.
It can never be infinite, but that's not the point I was trying to argue. Yes, you would have more spell combinations, but you would have less progress points to unlock them.
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Just to "help" the debate :
https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/681/feature-spotlight-4-skills-galore/45 (1 year ago)
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@Logain said in Spell crafting:
@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)we have 400 base(...)
No, you don't. If you look at the description of these spells, they are what you define as 'crafted spells' in this thread. You'd be hard pressed to have 400 different base elements for spell crafting. If you could name more than 50, I'd be impressed.
@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)e're saying if we could craft spells then that 400*3 could be infinite.
It can never be infinite, but that's not the point I was trying to argue. Yes, you would have more spell combinations, but you would have less progress points to unlock them.
the game will have 400 abilities as posted in the KS and in the news. Even IF it was 50 and we could craft our own it'd be great. Those 50 would be harder to obtain thus making the crafting system more valuable.
why would spell crafting use progress points? once you unlock the spells and ranks you can use them to make unique spells.
@Gofrit
we're brainstorming and fantasising here. not to mention we can't craft them now but we maybe can in the future!
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@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)the game will have 400 abilities as posted in the KS and in the news. Even IF it was 50(...)
I think you are misunderstanding me and I am not sure how I could explain it in a different way.
What you want to happen is that there are basic ingredients like 'lighting effect', 'fire effect', 'ice effect'..., 'single target', 'cone AoE', 'circular AoE',... which you then would combine to something like 'cone AoE fire effect' (just an example!!!).
The 400 spells announced in Fractured are already combinations (the 'cone AoE fire effect' in this example would be called something like fire breath), because there are no 400 basic ingredients.@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)Those 50 would be harder to obtain(...)
How exactly would you accomplish this? There is no 'power progression' in Fractured, so how do you make them 'harder to obtain'? How do you gate them?
@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)why would spell crafting use progress points?(...)
Because the only form of persistent progress in Fractured is unlocking new spells. If you skip that, there is zero way to progress in the game and some people want persistent progress as incentive to keep playing an MMORPG.
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@Meiki
I believe it's good to be imaginative. Sometimes these "play secessions" spark some ideas for developers even if they aren't directly copied from the players.
As a Demon, I'd love to have some spells and abilities tied to the life leech or necro skills.
I try to see spell crafting as needing just two skills though. Maybe the second rank would unlock crafting for that spell and the 3rd rank would just add another modifier to it. The way I'm seeing it is the ranks can be used independently of each other for crafting BUT maybe the ranks are our crafting. I'd like to take a spell that is an aoe and combine it with a channel to create a 'spirit bomb' type spell! as an example.@Logain
I mentioned the ranks as being 'crafting' above to my reply to Meiki.let's say you kill 20 trolls and gain knowledge to unlock a new spell. instead of 20 it might be 2000. Instead of walking into an area and learning a new spell, you now have to walk to 5 areas. Maybe the certain spell is a lootable that you have to 'learn'. instead of 1 item granting the spell it take 20, as they're shredded, maybe you can't complete it on that one planet as the Fracture put pieces on the other planets!
gear and resources are also part of progression. some people building a city will be their progression. not everyone will need to unlock all 400 skills with all 1200 ranks. I might be content with just bringing chaos to the human and beast planets in sieges. I may want to start a city to be the best dictator i can be!
The beauty of a sandbox is progression can be different for everyone.
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@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)let's say you kill 20 trolls and gain knowledge to unlock a new spell. instead of 20 it might be 2000(...)
That's simply grind, which the developers persistently stated they want to avoid
@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...) walk to 5 areas (...) it take 20(...)
The concept, as I understand it, is to grant the player 'progression in small bits'. That way you can gain a significant diversity in a very small amount of time in the beginning of your adventure. Your suggestion grants massive boots, but spread out over considerable feasts.
@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...) he beauty of a sandbox is progression can be different for everyone.
I am talking about PERSISTENT progression. Neither gear nor cities are persistent. I am talking about what would be getting 'levels' in other games.
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@Logain
there's going to be a grind. if you want to build a house, you need materials. you have to get the quantity or you have to get the money to pay someone. regardless, it's going to be a grind (unless you can buy it for cash which i doubt).your persistent progression isn't what mine is. you need to stop assuming everyone's persistent progression is the same as yours. even in most games with levels, those levels aren't persistent either.
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@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)if you want to build a house, you need materials(...)
There is certainly going to be 'grind' in that regards, but the average customer to dislike grind wouldn't need a house. That sort of customer is more interested in getting to competitive situations fast. Actually, Fractured even advertises as not needing grind.
@Jetah said in Spell crafting:
(...)your persistent progression isn't what mine is(...)
Certainly not! I am pointing out that this form of progression is meant for the people that desire it. See it as added incentive to broaden your customer base?
@Meiki said in Spell crafting:
(...)Levels are actually never persistent(...)
You misinterpret the term persistent. Persistent progress means that it stays the way it was between sessions. (When you log out and log in a week later, your characters progress is the same where you left it) What you are describing is non linear progress.
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@Logain Some People expect a PHD level reply and cannot handle simple statements without getting all excited about it.
The difference between the young bull and the old bull.
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If spell crafting wont be a thing in Fractured, could there still be some lighter system to spice up things a lil bit more? I was thinking, what if some weapons, armors and items could augment your abilities and that way give more variations? That way gear wont be just stats and will matter more in horizontal point of view. The core mechanics of abilitites should not change and these augments could only cause minor modifications.
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@Meiki Yeah I guess something like that. I would use these as example what I had in my mind:
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Lets say a "Cribling Strike" ability deals some damage and contains also a slow effect. Maybe some kind of big hammer changes that slow to stun. That way you could create new interesting combos, which also makes sense.
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For your idea of "Chest of the Ice Queen" I have another example. If that Frost Cone ability normally chills and slows the target for few seconds. Maybe this Chest will replace that slow CC with chill shield which is cast on you, and if enemy hits you when you are shielded, then they will be slowed down.
So in my suggestion your core idea is just made inside lighter system, which could be easier to implement without breaking what devs had in their mind from the beginning. This was just brainstorming and nothing so much planned beforehand.
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@Meiki said in Spell crafting:
(...)there was never a single mention of that that you should lose any progress while you log out(...)
I explained the term persistent progress to you, since you misunderstood the term to mean linear progress, as by your own response. It is crucial for communication that all parties involved have the same understanding of terminology.
@Meiki said in Spell crafting:
(...)just trying to prove your point for the sake of doing so is a really a strange concept(...) If you are not fond of a theory, just do not participate in it in a toxic way.
I am by no means trying to prove my point for the sake of doing so. I have financially invested in a product (the game) and am trying to point out flaws that I see in the combination of the concept of spell crafting with what has been advertised to be core design pillars of this game. And (at least I hope so) in a rather respectful way. If you consider everything that doesn't applaud your idea to be toxic, I am sorry to hear and can restrict my responses towards you from now on.
@Meiki said in Spell crafting:
(...)already provided more than enough ways how you can keep progress without scratching it or making something obsolete. If you still keep on pressing the fact it is progressless(...)
If you reread my replies carefully, you might realize that I am not trying to imply there would be NO means of persistent progress, but LESS means of persistent progress and instead spread further out. It is a simple concept of enumerative combinatorics. that the number of members of a set can never exceed the number of combinations. Spreading out persistent progress doesn't align well with the core design pillar of enabling 'day one competition'. Less persistent progress means more work for the developers to create content.
@Meiki said in Spell crafting:
(...)it has been already said that such a system will not be here(...)
You are suggesting an implementation, that is far from a theoretic discussion.
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