Massive battles: will "big numbers" always win?
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@fibs said in Massive battles: will "big numbers" always win?:
@grofire said in Massive battles: will "big numbers" always win?:
who said that, as much i seen good can't attack other good and neutral, did you see anyone from DS saying otherwise??
That's my point. It wasn't planned to be a thing, but the concern over how to address exploitation of Friendly Fire rules means there may be circumstances where they can do so.
lol, spys will have a bigger role now and can kill the people in the guild they are spying on too
this goin to be spicy
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As others have mentioned, friendly fire is a big counter to zergs. Coordination, strategy, and situational awareness win battles. Taken larger fights in AO all the time.. A dedicated shot caller with a good idea of the surroundings and a known group composition will have no issues. This is proven in AO, time and time again.
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@Vortech and lag do not forget that.
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Hmm I see an issue of ranged players having advantage over melee if friendly fire is active.
3 warriors can not attack same target together, because they will easily hit each other while swinging their weapon.
Meanwhile 3 mages can stand at distance and shoot at (attack) same target much more easily without damaging each other.
Yes 3 mages can be retards and stand behind each other in a line and shoot like that, but that's not likely, meanwhile warriors even when they coordinate they could easily hurt each other if they attack same target.
Yes they can go and attack different targets etc. but this doesn't diminish the fact that mages would have easier time not hurting each other in such scenarios. Thus mages again having an advantage.
Additional advantage of mages in group fights will be that they stay behind in range and then shoot at stuff in front, warriors have to charge ahead, and get attacked from front by enemy, and get SHOT FROM BEHIND by ranged friends...
Not to mention how beast kin would have an advantage on their home planet not being able to attack each other, while enemies suffered from friendly fire.
Conclusion: friendly fire brings so much more trouble (inbalance) than it brings positive things. Friendly fire would just be very bad balance wise.
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@gothix that not true, usually a group come from one direction, so range unit will stand close one to others, and they will be able to hit themselves while melee can just move little bit and not hit themselves.
and about the beast kin plant, well if u going to invade and disturb their lives, you will have to deal with the consonances, so FF off for the beast on their planet sounds find.
Conclusion: friendly fire brings good mechanics to the game, and not only senseless zerging. it must to be in game.
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@gothix it may be that most melee attacks, and a fair number of melee skills, will be single target, and thus can't splash fellow fighters, assuming they've made the appropriate skill selections. Similarly, the warriors negate the shots from behind by moving properly (ie, do not stand in front of the cannon). Co-ordination, again, matters. a third option is the mages engaging in ranged duels until the fighters get into position, and then switch targets while the fighters wreck things - or start buffing/healing the fighters/each other. a bunch of mages at half life against a bunch of fighters at full sound like a mop-up operation, so the retreating mages are free to play hob elsewhere
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@grofire said in Massive battles: will "big numbers" always win?:
and about the beast kin planet, well if u going to invade and disturb their lives, you will have to deal with the consonances, so FF off for the beast on their planet sounds find.
Wait so what about beast kin disturbing demon lives on Tartaros... It's unfair any way you look at it. Beast kin having unfair advantage.
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@TheRippyOne my example was about multiple guild fights where you can't coordinate everyone, and where many solo players join as well (during invasions for example or any mass fight).
Individual mages will have a nicer life than individual warriors, if we will have friendly fire.
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@gothix Fair enough. And, in that case, you are probably right - though, also in that case, concealed rogues are probably in the best position - if no one knows what's going on, fewer people are going to notice the sudden ganking.
I was focusing more on the early argument over whether numbers would be the deciding factor - I thought your example was an excellent expression of how more people wouldn't necessarily carry the day thanks to the excellent mechanic, and my own piece was more about how tactics and strategy would win out. I did find your conclusion to be odd, in that light - since it acknowledged a dynamic where skill, in the terms of organization, trumped raw brute force - something the devs seem to be in favor of; ie, an equal number of mages on both sides, but one side having an extra group of fighters, and losing due to poor co-ordination.
the benefit of the beast kin on their planet is only available on their home planet, last I checked - if beast kin invade Tartaros, they don't get the friendly fire exclusion - they play by demon rules on the demon's home turf. That is, actually, one of the big deals about the Tartaros eclipses - that it makes Syn play by demon rules, not human. It's a major reason humans want beast help - because their own rules get chucked and the battle favors the demon side (the beast's rules also get chucked if they come to the party, but beast resources used in human tech provides a counterweight "something" to balance the demon insurgence in a way that ignores the overall primacy the eclipse gives)
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@gothix in my suggestion the beast have FF off only on their planet.
And who are you kidding? Tartaros life is full of FFA PVP.
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@grofire said in Massive battles: will "big numbers" always win?:
And who are you kidding? Tartaros life is full of FFA PVP.
Yeah and I respect my demon brethren, even when they are my enemies and want to kill me, because they are real fighters that didn't ask for any special protections or safe zones. They accepted risks as they were.
However when fighting beast men, who requested safe zone on their planet and not to be touched by anyone if they don't wish so... they do not get to have any advantages while group fighting any other race, anywhere. Beast kin do not get to have FF off, while demons have FF on when fighting! Not a chance!
I will put every ounce of effort to see that beast men do not get any advantages when fighting demon groups, anywhere. Either both demons and beast kin will have FF ON in group fights, or they will both have FF OFF, regardless of what planet this is happening on!
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@TheRippyOne yeah you have some nice thoughts there. I was mostly pointing out that if we would have friendly fire, some "classes" would have a lot easier life than some other "classes" which could lead to those "unlucky" classes that have harder time, and are disadvantaged, to be underplayed by people due to this reason. And I would personally rather have players as equally as possible, spread among different "classes".
(Yeah I know people can change their schools, but since of those attributes we will have fixed I still personally believe the largest majority of players will stick to those schools their attributes support the best. Thus we will statistically have most people belong to particular "classes" without switching to opposing schools. This is only my opinion, but from my personal experience playing MMOs for a long time, I believe it will be like that.)
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@gothix you trying to compere oranges and tomato and don't understand why they are not the same...
usually beastman will farm on their planet, and demon will try to attack, that why beast will need the FF off cause they will not be used to get attacked and defend as group.
while demon do not go and do PVE, so they will roam in small groups, 1-4 players, and they will be on the alert all times... for the very off chance that beastman attack the 2 groups will be FF on.
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Grofire, that's their own problem... if they are not used to it? Are we playing here adults vs 6 year olds and we are supposed to give them double moves, extra dice throws, and in the end just let them win so they aren't annoyed?
It's one thing to turn PvP off in certain zones, but it's completely other thing to give one large group advantage when PvP does happen. That's would just be completely biased
Oh wait... if Beast men get advantage in PvP cus they are, as you say "not used to it"... do Demons get advantage in PvE cus they will not be "used to it" as much as beast men are? Because this is same logic...
