Cosmetic cash shop, RMT and p2w.
-
I hope it wont go P2W
-
@jetah said in Cosmetic cash shop, RMT and p2w.:
but that means people have to pay to get said item which won't help 90-95% of the population. IMO there should be a way for a person to acquire shop goods without needing to pay but time has to be spent. IE I get gold by farming mobs/players and I can sell that gold for Dynamight Gold so I can buy a new ability/spell GFX.
Ill be honest and never understood this. Are people that stingy that they wont drop a few dollars on a game they enjoy? And yes, people can pay. Its the difference of not buying coffee for a few days and spending it on the game alternatively.
-
@miffi said in Cosmetic cash shop, RMT and p2w.:
@jetah said in Cosmetic cash shop, RMT and p2w.:
but that means people have to pay to get said item which won't help 90-95% of the population. IMO there should be a way for a person to acquire shop goods without needing to pay but time has to be spent. IE I get gold by farming mobs/players and I can sell that gold for Dynamight Gold so I can buy a new ability/spell GFX.
Ill be honest and never understood this. Are people that stingy that they wont drop a few dollars on a game they enjoy? And yes, people can pay. Its the difference of not buying coffee for a few days and spending it on the game alternatively.
There are people who play games because it's free. Children 11+ play that don't have a credit card. Young adults that have tight budgets. To some people that coffee is more important than the game they play 30+ hours a week. I agree with you but there are people that will spend 1000 a month on a game and will trade that for the time saved not having to grind for something. I have a friend that doesn't play often but can afford to spend 300$ as a catch up if he needed to.
My point is accessibility to everyone.
-
@jetah said in Cosmetic cash shop, RMT and p2w.:
There are people who play games because it's free. Children 11+ play that don't have a credit card. Young adults that have tight budgets. To some people that coffee is more important than the game they play 30+ hours a week. I agree with you but there are people that will spend 1000 a month on a game and will trade that for the time saved not having to grind for something. I have a friend that doesn't play often but can afford to spend 300$ as a catch up if he needed to.
My point is accessibility to everyone.
Whilst that is true, why would they cater to those people when it creates unbalance. Its too easy for things to become unstable. Thats fine, if that coffee is more important thats great, priorities. But then that is their choice and they miss out on the cosmetic. Just because they want their cake and eat it too doesnt mean they should bring mechanics in that is too easily lob-sided with those who have deep pockets. Whenever you can 'catch-up' by throwing money to the game, it becomes paying to win. People in general want an even playing field and that means you achieved/found/explored/killed whatever and wherever to gain that advantage.
I know you are advocating for those who dont have much money, and thats fair enough - I can understand that. But the con that comes with that creates way more of a problem than those not getting stuff for free. Prometheus also stated that there would be premium items you could gain through playing the game so they dont lose out entirely. And again, if there is one they really want, well then they sacrifice that coffee. 11 years olds aren't really the priority either when it comes to game development. They will gain the ability to purchase cosmetics in their games when they are old enough.
-
Either a system is setup so everyone pays, like a subscription, or a system is setup so few pay but are allowed to trade with those that don't. People are trading time for something. Time spent farming in game or time spent farming a job. In the last 5 years the last sub game that stayed that way was FFXIV, rest of them switched to F2P. That to me means the sub monetization is dead. Only Star Citizen or Camelot Unchained are close enough to know if they succeed with sub based or it's completely dead.
catching up isn't p2w, as you pay for the convenience to not have to farm in game. My friend doesn't win by buying stuff in game. He pays so he doesn't have to spend 40 hours a week grinding the game, he pays for the convenience. Most games are setup so it's cheaper and faster to have a job and spend the cash than to farm for it.
-
@Jetah Just because something works doesnt mean its the right way to do things. It also doesnt mean its not p2w. Yes, the sub system is dying but thats because there's to much choice now and people want things for free. This game is also not sa f2p, its b2p. Meaning those who want everything for free wont be coming to this game anyway.
And yes, 'catching up' is p2w no matter how you try to justify it. You paid to get ahead. That is paying literally to win. Especially when you can pay wildly more than is required. Thats exactly why it shouldn't be in the game. Most people are in that boat that have to work, so do I, but I dont want someone who makes $50k more than I do to have that advantage over me. If I cant make it in the game by the time spent, well then either I accept that and play the game for what it is, or I move on to a game that caters more to my lifestyle.
Also, that game is designed round not having to grind, so that excuse doesn't hold any weight here. The only way you would be able to have a 'catch-up' mechanic is that if you could buy the skills and spells directly with cash so that your friend doesnt have to play the game to beat it.
-
So 'catching up' is now 'getting ahead'? How does someone catch up yet end up beyond others? That doesn't make any sense. Catching up means they are equal to everyone. Although gear might be equal or close that doesn't mean game mechanics are the same. You either pay time grinding in the game or you pay time grinding a job (to use the funds to skip the grind in a game).
Subscription games catered to that 'everyone is equal so long as they played the same amount of time' but that is a dead system. People who wanted to play more but couldn't complained because their friends were getting ahead. If I get ahead of my friends i try to catch them up as best as i can.
Again my friend doesn't have the time to play many hours a week. He might play 5-20 hours a month. To him a pay to catch up isn't p2w because he isn't guaranteed to win.
-
@prometheus said in Cosmetic cash shop, RMT and p2w.:
@phaethonas said in Cosmetic cash shop, RMT and p2w.:
Will it be possible to trade in-game Fractured's cosmetic items or not?
As of today, the plan is that it won't be possible. When you buy a skin for a race or for some type of armor or for a kind of pet, it just adds the option in your account to use the skin (it will reskin that type of item if you're wearing it, or that type of pet if you're controlling it). Same goes for cosmetic pets. None are actual in-game items, and there is no auction house where you can sell the skins etc that you own to other players.
More excellent news (and choices).
-
I don't think cosmetics can make a game p2w
-
rules should serve to enhance a game. cashop add new rules that doesnt add anything to the game, so it should be avoided if possible.
that said, cosmectics are a fine to grab the tast whale oil whithout really ruinning the game for others...so, way.
not p2w.
-
@elwendyr many people here are scared about those buying shop thingy (cosmetic prolly) and selling those in any AH in game for in game money. They consider it P2W.
P2W is personal. For example I consider P2W only those items that makes you more powerfull and are not obtenible in game.
Someone may consider botting pay to win. Others may consider something else.
-
i think the idea is buy cosmetics, sell to play for gold, use gold to buy gear. i still don't call this p2w though.
-
@jetah said in Cosmetic cash shop, RMT and p2w.:
So 'catching up' is now 'getting ahead'? How does someone catch up yet end up beyond others? That doesn't make any sense. Catching up means they are equal to everyone. Although gear might be equal or close that doesn't mean game mechanics are the same. You either pay time grinding in the game or you pay time grinding a job (to use the funds to skip the grind in a game).
Subscription games catered to that 'everyone is equal so long as they played the same amount of time' but that is a dead system. People who wanted to play more but couldn't complained because their friends were getting ahead. If I get ahead of my friends i try to catch them up as best as i can.
Again my friend doesn't have the time to play many hours a week. He might play 5-20 hours a month. To him a pay to catch up isn't p2w because he isn't guaranteed to win.
Just because he is not guaranteed to win doesnt mean the concept isnt paying to win. You can have all the advantage in the world, and if you arent skilled enough you will still lose. But the premise behind being able to have an unlimited influx of in game currency because you can continuously buy and sell cosmetics is paying to win at its core. Thats how one 'gets ahead'. Whether your friends does it or not is not the problem. Its as a whole the mechanic is based on who can spend the most money. When you argue grinding work as opposed to playing the game, it just reiterates about need to find a different genre of game. MMO's arent for you if you cant accept that you wont be able to keep up with top tier. Very few can. When someone can skip content and get ahead purely by paying, it makes playing the game pointless. Especially in this game where progression is exploration!
You most likely wont agree with me, thats all good. I wont with you but we already had an answer from the dev's so realistically this convo is pointless lol.
-
are you against parents who hire coaches for their children? or parents that can afford a private school vs public?
-
i am pretty much for equality of education, so yeah, im against knowing that some child just get a better education than others. (this problem could be resolved by simply firing every school teachers expect the most competents, and having them teach the whole country using the internet ^^).
in games though, every pieces of rules should exist for teh sake of the game, and nothing more.
being able to skip challenges, the actual substance of the game, and access the rewards of the said challenges with real world currency hardly add anything of value to the game.
rules are there for the sake of the game, so a rule that encourage you to skip the game? no thanks ^^
everything in game should be earned by playing and not by any other means.
for argument sake, lets say the player experience would be enhanced by skipping parts of the game, then why not just handing hit to him rather than making him pat for it? we have a rule thats there for the sake of somebody finances and not for the sake of the game. as a player im just against it. its not the best for the actual quality of the game .
now the game is created and cared for by actual people, who need money on the long run for the servers... in mu opinions the best way to go is monthly subscription the same for everyone. end of the story.
BUT whale grabbing can be a good alternative. as long as you manage to offer meaningless stuff to them for an exorbitent price. stuff so meaningless than if removed from the game, nobody would see the difference.
cosmetics in this regard, is a pretty neat idea as long as the in game stuff dosnt ffell "meh" when compared to it.
thay should, however, not be tradable in game. they arent there to add to the game but only to grab to the whale money. they exist in an another dimension. they should not directly affect the state of the game.
thats my opinion at least ^^
-
@jetah said in Cosmetic cash shop, RMT and p2w.:
(...)Catching up means they are equal to everyone(...)
No, you are equal to the one you are catching up with, because those who aren't paying to 'catch up' (, read the majority,) are staying behind. You are 'catching up' to the top, when you were at the lower end before, or in other terms, you bought your place in the top.
-
@jetah You might as well have different financial classes that are chosen for people when they create characters with that logic. Player A starts off with 1 mil in currency and player B 1000. That would make the game more like real life and unbalanced. But if player A farmed that money in game which he then went and hired a personal fractured tutor to teach him the game, then thats totally fine if thats what he so chooses.
-
@jetah said in Cosmetic cash shop, RMT and p2w.:
i think the idea is buy cosmetics, sell to play for gold, use gold to buy gear. i still don't call this p2w though.
pricely this is the idea Jetah. Thanks for getting it, even if you don't share the view that this is p2w.
-
It's b2p so even cosmetics in cash shop is a bit... sketchy. But it's not a big deal so I'll live with it
-
in every small mmo ive seen, the devs have always known to avoid p2w like the plague, so its never really an issue. the main point being that p2w implies abusing human psychology and whatnot in order to bait players into buying as much shit as possible, and create/bait whales. in small indie mmo teams they aint ever gonna focus on getting a huge marketing department and various other professionals just to milk money out. additionally theres a huge bias against p2w in the western mmo scene so even big name mmos developed in the west know to avoid it.
