A Rant on Crafting and market economy problems.
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These last few days the game seems to be totally dead.
This might be a great time to go and farm mobs for those rare mats !
But I just cant get the motivation to do even uncontested mob farming due to the knowledge that the drop rates are so low that even 2 hours don't get me many -or any- of the drop I am looking for.
At which point that time just feels totally wasted. At which point why even bother?
and that is a big problem with some RNG systems.
TTTTTTTTTHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT is just as probable as HTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHT
But when you are on the receiving end of 'bad luck' the consolation that it is still holding to true probability is of no comfort at all.
The perception and expectation of some fairness is always going to sneak in and cause problems.
That 5% drop rate is for the server as a whole, not for you, and calculated on each kill, not for all of that mob type on spawn. Such that even if I kill -all- the mountain trolls spawned on the map, probability says that none will have the drop. And that is an ok expectation?
There needs to be some connection between expended effort and expected reward. If not then the system is demoralizing and arbitrary to the point of ambivalence to the whole system.
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Games seemed dead for more then the last few days.
Of course when you turn crafting into a forced gold grind just to make stuff that doesn't sell. Crafters aren't going to hang around
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So I tested and people are either not paying attention or purposely lying.
The box labeled "Tax" goes to the city
The box unlabeled and the only box if there isn't a tax goes no where. It's a pure gold sink.So crafters are forced to grind gold for no reason.
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@dracokalen whoever said that the 'base' amount was more than a gold sink? They were quite clear that this was the gold sink part of it, and the tax was for the city...no subterfuge, it is exactly as advertised and intended.
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@dracokalen The crafters are not forced to grind with the new changes. You are right if you only want to gather some materials from nature, craft the item and watch these items sit idly in your inventory/chests. But any sensible craftsman would consider interacting with economy which means that one should sell its crafted item for revenue. When you sell your items, you do not need to grind as you will be earning gold via this way. The only thing you need is an initial investment(or what you call "massive grind") and then, you should be good to go.
This scenario is not possible at the moment because the economy does not exists, however, this has nothing to do with the current changes. In fact, they are trying to create dynamism by these new gold sinks, but you are a bit too self-opinionated to understand.
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@Clinion said in A Rant on Crafting and market economy problems.:
@dracokalen The crafters are not forced to grind with the new changes. You are right if you only want to gather some materials from nature, craft the item and watch these items sit idly in your inventory/chests. But any sensible craftsman would consider interacting with economy which means that one should sell its crafted item for revenue. When you sell your items, you do not need to grind as you will be earning gold via this way. The only thing you need is an initial investment(or what you call "massive grind") and then, you should be good to go.
This scenario is not possible at the moment because the economy does not exists, however, this has nothing to do with the current changes. In fact, they are trying to create dynamism by these new gold sinks, but you are a bit too self-opinionated to understand.
Except my things have sat on the auction house for weeks. People don't buy poor items unless they are the special recipes. Put normal mithril chainmail on the auction and weeks later....nothing
There is no rhyme or reason for making crafters pay to use a machine they themselves built.
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@GamerSeuss said in A Rant on Crafting and market economy problems.:
@dracokalen whoever said that the 'base' amount was more than a gold sink? They were quite clear that this was the gold sink part of it, and the tax was for the city...no subterfuge, it is exactly as advertised and intended.
Go back and read this thread and other like it. I have been told many times the fee was to support the town.
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The TAX is to support the town, the FEE is a purposeful game gold sink...both support the game's economy @dracokalen but only the tax, if any, supports the town.
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Except my things have sat on the auction house for weeks. People don't buy poor items unless they are the special recipes. Put normal mithril chainmail on the auction and weeks later....nothing
There is no rhyme or reason for making crafters pay to use a machine they themselves built.That is entirely due to the durability issue.
If things dont break ppl dont replace them.
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@OlivePit Durability, Population, and current percieved gold value vs item values.
The gold sinks being added to the game will actually improve the market experience, but it isn't an instant fix or band-aid. The Gold Sinks need time to take affect, the durability issues need to be rebalanced, and the game population needs to move upwards to make these changes show. @dracokalen (was agreeing and adding to you, OlivePit)
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The economy has not worked at any point and I fear that it will not work in the future either. The problems are fundamental and cannot be fixed with bandaids. It is really hard to get people interested of trading when there is very little interesting gear, items and consumables available. Some resources will sell and that's it.
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@Tuoni said in A Rant on Crafting and market economy problems.:
The economy has not worked at any point and I fear that it will not work in the future either. The problems are fundamental and cannot be fixed with bandaids. It is really hard to get people interested of trading when there is very little interesting gear, items and consumables available. Some resources will sell and that's it.
Not when the developers keep putting the cart before the horse
crafters have to grind gold because nothing sells.
Prices are such that adventurers have to grind gold to afford the crafters pricesSo more gold gets pushed into the game then before
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metal ingots take WAY to long to make and to only make one at a time is just dumb... Gear needs the ability to enchant AND slot gems, Gear is not balanced and should ALWAYS allow basic attacks to hit targets NO MATTER the element, and Plans should be easier to find........ also why are there no vendors???
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@RavenCypher There are no Vendors because Fractured is a Player run economy. They don't want any NPC vendors, they want the players to make all the gear and then sell it in the market themselves, not just head over to the local NPC to buy what you want...that was one of the main selling points of the game and how its economy works.
The ingot thing is a purposeful timesink. The game needs timesinks and goldsinks in order for the economy to work out, it is just a matter of balancing those sinks across the board.
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@OlivePit said in A Rant on Crafting and market economy problems.:
Item durability is so high they never get replaced
as someone who has broken multiple sets of hunter armor and replaced bows constantly, i completely disagree.
If your armor isnt wearing out, youre just not playing that much. I tear through the gear.
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@dracokalen The reason most things dont sell, is because people are making them for themselves, or have a guild person that makes their items for them, and they grind or buy the mats.
Braavos is consistently selling bows in the marketplace, and they do sell.
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@GamerSeuss I get the NPC venders, but it would be nice if the Governor had the ability to add a "Store" building that the controlling group could get additional funding for selling bandages and food...... oh and WE NEED MANA POTIONS OR FOOD!!!! badly lol. My main reason is for an easier way to dumb useless gear we craft to lvl our crafting and make a tad bit of gold from it, because lets face it white basic gear/weapons just get thrown away and don't sell at all in the market (especially with the low population right now and no difference in the color stage of gear other then durability) it can be a pain having to drag 54+ swords out of your inventory 1 by 1.
*side note: gear that is higher rarity should have more core stats then the ones below it and not just talking about durability
The timesink isn't a bad idea if we were able to stack more then just 5 Ore to make ONLY 1 ingot... most of us have a massive amount of carts sitting by to hand feed the smelters every 3+hrs and that seems really over bearing. At least the Wood slab maker has an inventory to add multiple logs it would be nice if the smelters had something similar to auto feed from. With attention off the chore of refilling the Smelter we can focus on other crafting and even exploration/fighting..... ultimately making the game more enjoyable.
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Okay, let's address some of your points:
- There are storage buildings for ore and coal, and the smithy did have a built in coal storage before,not sure now, but it didn't auto feed.
- The times inks for metal are nothing on those for leather...granted, they now do things in groups of 5, and have 8 slots each, bit 16 hrs to refine as opposed to 4. Advanced smelters can do 2 at a time as well.
- They don't need or want to add more gold into the game, like by adding an NPC market as well as the current one, and each town market allows upto 20 sell orders as it is.
- On the topic of nothing being sold, including basic gear, almost every day I log in, I have a message that I've sold another suit of leather armor(body piece at least) and that's because I diversified my marketing and put leather armor in more than 1 market(like starter towns) AND I adjusted my prices up when fees for crafting were added. I sell leather body pieces at 250 gold each.
- Gold is dirt easy to get in game, so there's no need to make it easier. Shoot, some too lazy to gather will pay as much as 10 gold apiece for bandages, plant fibers, even stones and branches. Just don't expect instant gratification all the time.
This games ecomy relies on timesinks to add value to thing because gold is so plentiful.
Finally, remember that this is a beta, not a prerelease. Things like alchemy haven't been implemented yet. Betas, especially 1st closed betas often aren't nearly as fun and playable as this is. When I beta tested Daggarfall, they hadn't even uploaded all tge textures yet for basic walls, so we got grey-walls in many places, mixed with the occasional texture.
So many seem to approach this beta like it's a full feature prerelease and not a beta for bug and exploit finding and mechanic balancing.
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My Rebuttal:
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What buildings store them other then wagons? Currently the Smithy does NOT have storage for the ore other then what is being used to make 1 individual ingot at a time. Auto Feed would be amazing so that you could just tell it how many you want and it produced them from a que. basically like pretty much ALL survival/MMO games.
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I would much rather wait for a longer time and grab 40+ ingots rather then having to make 1 every 4 hours and manually do it each time. At that point it becomes a chore and gets old real fast. The ONLY way around this is to dedicate plots for a ton of Smithies which takes away from a member in the guild to have their own land since plots are one per account... another issue with such low population at the moment.
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I'm not suggesting they add money, necessarily, the gold would come from the controlling guild. The governor would have the ability to build a store front in the town with a certain amount of gold allowing others to buy and sell using the controlling guilds own gold cash flow. Either way a ton of primitive and basic gear is wasted as is the materials it takes to craft them.... even adding a salvage or break down option to get a percentage of the materials back would also compensate for this. Salvaging the gear would add on to the experience to lvl and make the process easier and more productive.
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yea, that's not the case anymore and no way would they sell for 250 seeing as NO one can get that kind a gold without that basic armor which takes barely any effort to farm the materials. So, to say you sell basic hide or commoner gear for that much doesn't fit.... especially since that is all made in the Tutorial.
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Gaining additional gold isn't my reasoning for suggesting any of this. My point is to make crafting and item quality leveling more productive and smoother.
Again.... timesink and gold value is not in question.... NO ONE wants to come to a game and have it seem like a Job where they have to fill a smelter EVERY 3-4hrs to make sure they have 1 bar.... that's just dumb.
The games that require player built economies typically don't survive these days if they don't have support to run smother. If you want a real economy player built game take the example of Star Wars Galaxies..... NO GAME HAS DONE IT BETTER... where players could run their own stores and even design them.
I get this is just a beta, but without suggestions and players talking about it the game could lose the chance to be as good as it should be. Not all ideas are great... heck there could definitely be better ideas then what I'm suggesting, but the point is as it stands that even as good as the game is the game could be better
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Storage for coal and ore at the black smith shop:
I agree with the 4hr ingot timer being too much busy work, make it 16 hrs and produce 4 ingots.
While the city run market idea is great, and I would love it, it also seems like extra work for the devs which means it will not happen. I run Zenith and use one character just for their 20 order slots to place orders.
Salvaging will not happen. This has been said multiple times by devs.
4: sea trolls can be killed with a pointed stick or basic bow for lots of profit with -no- armor straight out of tutorial.
