"Fight the good fight!"
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First point is about general combat; could there be an 'auto-attack' function added? In conjunction with an 'auto-target' function, specifically for ranged combat, but I don't think it would hurt melee.
AdventureQuest Worlds has a system whereby you initiate combat with a monster and you automatically auto-attack and target that creature until it is dead, but your skills can be used to replace your auto-attacks whenever you choose to activate them.
I have noticed that in melee range, arrows fly over the heads of enemies, and targeting is difficult, even if there is only you and one enemy, let alone multiple targets.
Having these automatic systems would also help kiting as you could run when needed and allow the auto's to kick in when you stop.Second point is about the criminal system
It will be interesting to see what happens on Tartaros, where almost everyone will be evil; will there be chaos? everyone stealing and killing like, well, demons? how would you know who stole your stuff? anyway, time will tell.
Arboreus will likely be a case of; see red, kill red, while Syndesia on the other hand will likely have regions as 'home-base' for good or evil players, and where one enters the others territory, the outcome will depend on the people involved.
But even so, the good regions will likely be patrolled (to some degree) by bounty hunters, and so, particularly for Syndesia, which relies on a give and take between these forces of good and evil, both sides must then be equal.I refer to looting, and I think I have a solution to the issue of looting differences between alignments.
Firstly, all players can be looted equally.
Secondly, no EQUIPED items can be looted.
Thirdly, value of items looted could be the determining factor for karma loss/gain. Perhaps the karma difference between the players? the more evil/good a player is, the more karma is gained/lost by killing/looting them.
I still don't like that a good player will gain karma by killing evil players, and not lose it by looting them. I understand it from a game point of view, but still; killing the bad guy and taking his stuff makes you a better person?This way players can still lose their backup gear, their gold, their precious materials and so on, but they at least still have the means to get them back. Given the wear on armour and weapons, and the time and effort required to acquire high end gear, I don't think players need the added loss of the things they have at least managed to make. Players can still lose the materials for their next set of gear, their gear for specific fights, and so on, which frankly is bad enough, but to lose your everyday gear that you maybe just finally finished making...
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A few comments:
Auto targeting for ranged: This would go against the intention of the devs. It is intended that you need to manually aim the target.
Reds on arboreus: They are simply not there. You can't turn evil on Arboreus. The only exception would be the demons in those areas where you can invade.
Looting on Syndesia: I agree with no gear loot for anyone, but there must be some kind of penalty for reds. If we add (as sorely needed) an equipment wear on KD/Death, then reds could suffer more from it.
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@spoletta was there a particular reason? melee doesn't require aiming, at least not specific targeting, and even arrows only require that the arrows path intersects with the creatures hitbox, all it really means is that now you fail to actually fire the arrow when the mini-map gets in the road. I guess it would be important for PvP though. perhaps targetting doesnt work on players? but npcs run straigh at you anyway, so aiming as a necessary skill isn't the issue, its just the annoying HUD bits and trees and other creatures and close range issues that affect targeting, none of which melee has to worry about.
and as I said, targeting at close range with a bow often sends the arrow over their head, which could just be a bug?The reds on arboreus I was referring to were invaders yes. I knew you can't change to evil alignment on Arboreus, but are you saying you can't go there as evil? I thought it was just access to areas and time limit that alignment affected? so yes, not in a day to day sense like on syndesia, but people on Arboreus would encounter reds from time to time, at which point they will likely attack or flee, assuming them to be enemies, which was what I was getting at.
I think that once the entire game is finished and put together, the visibilty that reds get will frankly be enough penalty on Syndesia; most of syndesia is likely to be good or neutral aligned, where being evil will often make you an instant target, but there will still be some regions where players are mostly evil where it will be the reverse, which is exactly the dynamic that Syndesia is supposed to have.
Good players will (hopefully) have the protection of the majority and 'social justice' in most of Syndesia, where evil players risk their loot just entering, while bounty hunters and parties of good players will be a threat even in the 'red zones'.
Evil is it's own penalty.
Ideally anyway, besides, evil players will have to deal with other evil players as well...I haven't used higher tier gear so far, so I don't know the wear rates, but I think most players will have enough to worry about with the ordinary wear, don't forget, not all evil characters will be players that are always PKing; there will also be those that suck at PvP that just want to try it out. Not to mention that whatever systems are put in place to penalise the dedicated griefers, will almost certainly be counteracted by them in some way; make it harder for them to do it and they will just form bigger gangs or use dirtier tricks.
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Problem is that ordinarily there is almost no wear.
They only items which are getting degraded are bows, melee weapons and the armors of melee toons.
Mage staves are eternal, armors of ranged tools are eternal, same for their necklaces and shields.
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@spoletta So maybe they should change the wear system? percentage of wear to all equipped gear based on knowledge gain from enemy defeated?
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I'm in favour of any wear system which is not based on physically hitting or being hit.
Even just a time based one is fine.
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@spoletta considering that skills/abilities/spells (the things that you use to kill things that cost mana, whatever the name is) are also used by monsters, perhaps, and I know it would be a lot more work, but the system could be based on what is done by, rather than what is done to ie: every time a player uses a skill, or attacks with a weapon (potential problem there, what about accidental attacks, practice swings, missfires etc?) or an attack/skill is used by an enemy and hits, the wear is applied based on the skill/attack.
So every weapon would have a 'wear per attack' value, as would all skills whether player or mob controlled.I don't like time based, I tend to use the slow and steady approach so...
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The game recognizes when you are in combat, so it could simply be based on time spent in combat.
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@spoletta That would still put archers that spend a lot of time running away at a disadvantage
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Would still be far better than the current one.
No system is perfect.
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@Mirgannel12 I agree that attacking with the basic attack is clumsy because you need to constantly click again the target, which itself is annoying. On top of that all those lags and pings takes care of that you can easily miss click the target and this turns the targeting to move towards the enemy. Albion has good system for this and you can auto-attack the chosen target, and even when you move you can just push the space-bar and your character attacks the selected target. That makes kiting smooth and takes away the ackward miss click possibility between attack and move.
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Use right click to attack when kiting, not left click.
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True but that takes just away one part of the problem. Still the constant clicking between moving and targeting feels bad and clumsy, and does not help for ping and lag issues for example.
Tbh the combat has been in general clunky from the beginning and not changed much during the test periods. Everytime a new test starts I hope it would be developed further but still mainly the same. Combat is important to get as good as possible or it can ruin the whole game. At the moment the combat is decent, if being generious. Imo aiming to make the combat more fluid and smooth would be good direction.
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What other options are there? Without controller support anyway
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@Tuoni The Devs want combat to be Click intensive and Target uncertain. That is why they are using the combat system they are using. If you made it auto-attack/auto-target, then you would free your mouse up to do other things and leave the character on autopilot...instead of having to choose when you stop clicking attacks to do something else with your mouse.
This is all 100% intentional, so they aren't going to add in any systems that take away from that combat experience.
As to Evils going to Arborea, other than raids, they can only go there for like 30 mins at a time, and PvP is still disabled for them. They can only attack players during Raids specifically...at least that is the understanding.
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@Tuoni surely there are a few things to get better in the combat, desync first.
But for kiting I think that it is mostly fine. I mean, I used to be an ADC in LoL, so maybe it simply comes more natural to me.
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My main issue is arrows not hitting at close range, and I do actually like that the main 'difficulty setting' in Fractured is your own personal learning of what works when and how to use what you have to best advantage.
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@GamerSeuss In the system I mentioned where it is only ordinary attacks that are automatic, you would have a hard time winning on autopilot because for most fights you still need to use skills. I was also assuming that clicking anywhere else with the mouse would disable the automatic systems. you would still need to select your next target as well.
Torchlight had a real problem with ranged combat because you had to click on the target for every single attack, and with enemy movement that was hard enough, when you add other enemies that you don't want to target yet (prioritising targets) that makes it even harder, and you cant move while attacking, so a miss is very bad. Add lag to the mix and you have an un-playable game (no lag in Torchlight because it's single-player, but Fractured has lag)
The Fractured system is better because you can hold right button to attack and then hold left to run, so kiting is not too bad, but with any lag you might as well logout; you wont hit, you cant time skills, nothing. At least with melee you can still just swing your weapon around and hope. Also, objects; if the enemy is behind a tree ( which is often) you can't hit them with ranged, but you can with melee (Does toggling combat mode fix this? I keep forgetting to use it :/)
All this system would do is give ranged combat the same ability that melee has; namely to hit your enemy (with ordinary attacks) I get that ranged has an advantage in that it can hit without being hit, but (I believe) that the damage is already adjusted to compensate for that, and the view distance is incredibly limited anyway.
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The first step to fixing ranged is homing auto attacks like AO. Rangers for example, feel pretty awful in pvp and their potential is limited by this clunky implementation. Save the skillshots for the abilities..
@spoletta said in "Fight the good fight!":
Auto targeting for ranged: This would go against the intention of the devs. It is intended that you need to manually aim the target.
A bit excessive.. Allowing homing auto attacks within a reasonable cone doesn't take anything away from requiring skill shots on all abilities. It just fixes the clunk/jank ranged users have to deal with trying to land chip damage and move around.
Looting on Syndesia: I agree with no gear loot for anyone, but there must be some kind of penalty for reds. If we add (as sorely needed) an equipment wear on KD/Death, then reds could suffer more from it.
Lineage II PVP and karma system would work really well here with just a few tweaks IMO.. Could even incorporate your item wear in place of their progression loss.
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After hearing all these ideas and opinions, I'm leaning away from auto targeting/attacking.
My initial suggestion was mainly to deal with problems hitting your target, not so much targeting itself, so if those issues are fixed, auto systems wont be needed. (Can anyone say what specific circumstances lead to arrows missing at close range? I can't remember if it was specifically targeting, because I know that often, when trees are in the way and such, aiming before or after the target in the correct line rather than actually having the cursor on the target can fix targeting problems)
