Map clarity
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@Jetah said in Map clarity:
personally, unless the avatar visits then the map should be blank. unless you have some cartography points it should be very basic. if you wanted to see roads and passable areas then you'd need more cartography points.
Allright. But it only hides the map before i visit the place for the first time. Any time after that I´ probably know the place. It doesn´t add more fun imo, just makes it more complicated (or "realistic" but it´s not reality, it´s game with magic).
but that takes effort.
yep, same as above - it does take effort, but only on first visit. Demons will surely soon know all the important spots and will rush to the closest one the very moment they´re teleported on furryland.
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https://fractured.gamepedia.com/Shadow_Demon
Shadow Demons are agile and evasive creatures, aces of disguise and illusion, naturally proficient in the use of traps and poisons. Attuned to obscurity, they enjoy a wide array of benefits during nighttime or when moving through dark environments.
Not sure anything else is known about it yet, but looks like fine choke point defensive skill.
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@Phylosophys
As @Jetah said, we don't know.
My assumption is that those are going to have short effects (2-5sec for CC, up to 20sec for walls) which will mostly help in ganks (by blocking paths offscreen) and in zvz (as a big aoe CC). Either way, in my opinion, unless they block a path for a very long period of time, these obstacles shouldn't be marked on the map.@Jetah
You don't necessary have to plan a route in advance, as long as you get accustomed to reading maps you will be able to not get yourself trapped by pressing M from time to time. In fact, if they implement mounts gallop and autorun, being able to read maps on the go will pretty much make the difference between surviving and getting killed when ganked.i dont see how a mobility skill will sacrifice a combat stat. we have a limited number of skill slots but if you can't disengage or gap close then you'll lose most fights. there's the gif of the earth wall going to and the person jumping over it. i expect to see that a lot.
In short, nuke+utility deals less damage than nuke without utility. I didn't say a mobility skill (and I agreed that even in zvz you will have one engage/disengage skill, most likely a speed buff tho); I said a high mobility build. Anyway, what scale of pvp are you talking about here?
No map at all would be a game changer. I don't know how I feel about that, but t's probably going to be one of the top complaining reasons.
@Gothix
I already explained that I got it a long time ago, but I was pointing out your first reply was not in line with your others. We're over this. I explained what kind of players will be advantaged in what kind of situations by this "feature" (from my point of view) and I asked for your opinion 2 posts ago.@asspirin
Thanks. I wonder how much they will last, how many traps a demon can set, either if the enemies will see them or not and if mounts will have gallop and skills. I wish the devs would talk more about features that explain their vision about the scale of this game.
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I could pretty much tell what was passable and not passable but then again I didn't stray much from road usually
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@asspirin said in Map clarity:
@Jetah said in Map clarity:
personally, unless the avatar visits then the map should be blank. unless you have some cartography points it should be very basic. if you wanted to see roads and passable areas then you'd need more cartography points.
Allright. But it only hides the map before i visit the place for the first time. Any time after that I´ probably know the place. It doesn´t add more fun imo, just makes it more complicated (or "realistic" but it´s not reality, it´s game with magic).
but that takes effort.
yep, same as above - it does take effort, but only on first visit. Demons will surely soon know all the important spots and will rush to the closest one the very moment they´re teleported on furryland.
maybe your first visit you just hit the notable spots. maybe the visits after just increase the detail of the map. whereas if you had cartography then it may take less trips. example: without carto knowledge it takes 100 trips to fully detail the map. with carto it may take 35 trips. this assumes the same spawn location and going in the same direction each time.
we still dont know if there's a random spawn point in the fury planet. they may cycle through them all or it might be random. with a minimap, it'd take less than a minute to see where we are if the minimap was complete.
@Razvan
i try to look at all sizes of combat but i guess i mostly think 1v1. it's already been said that time to kill wont be short, so nukes to kill will have to be multiple characters focusing on a single target without any obstacles in the way. trees, shields, friends/enemies, may all get in the way of your target. most skills (i'll say maybe only a few will track a target) are line of sight and straight line. if the target is too far away they'll easily maneuver around it (depending on speed of the projectile of course).
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@Jetah
For 1v1 you are obviously right, but I tend to ignore anything under 5v5 when it affects more popular or impactful forms of pvp, especially when it's a decision which directly buffs ganking.
In ZvZ, multiple characters focus a single target; or, if the game is aoe-heavy, then tanks go in and CC whoever they can and the dps rain nukes on them.
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@Razvan no der. Knowledge of a player is the only edge that exists in a horizontal progression game. look at League of Legends for example (as much as there is mass vertical progression). If you have 2 players with the exact same champion and exact same gear... the one that is SMARTER and KNOWS THE CHAMPION better, or HAS MORE EXPERIENCE is going to win.... EVERY TIME!!! Horizontal progression has literally nothing to do with it. It is player knowledge, just like this game will be based upon. Player knowledge will be the whole basis of this game.
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maybe your first visit you just hit the notable spots. maybe the visits after just increase the detail of the map. whereas if you had cartography then it may take less trips. example: without carto knowledge it takes 100 trips to fully detail the map. with carto it may take 35 trips. this assumes the same spawn location and going in the same direction each time.
I ment such map --> dont know how many teleport spots furry land and human land will have, but Im sure each spot will have such map with points of interest (this one is from GRIM DAWN pointing out spawning spots for farm runs). So it will not take 100 trips, but like one or two.
Youre right however about random spawn spots; maybe some divination spell like this one from Baldurs Gate will help with map and resources then.
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@Xzait
It would be easier if you quoted what I said to know the full context. I will assume you argue with the part I said that there are other advantages than player skill and bonusses to raw stats.
If so, comparing a mmo with a 5v5 arpg is just wrong. First of all, if you duo with your buddy, you might be ganked by 4-8 people. In the same light, if you have a 30 active people guild, you can't really zvz a 100 active people guild. So there, player count matters. Then it's of course the financial part of the game. If you're in a top guild, you will have access to expensive resources. You don't have to be particularly good to get recruited, but you have to be very active because the important thing in a zvz is to be there and listen to the shotcaller. How early you started playing might also be a factor here: if you start from day one, you might have some expensive collectibles or a chance of owning a house in a good place or a crafting station in a good town.
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@Razvan said in Map clarity:
@Jetah
For 1v1 you are obviously right, but I tend to ignore anything under 5v5 when it affects more popular or impactful forms of pvp, especially when it's a decision which directly buffs ganking.
In ZvZ, multiple characters focus a single target; or, if the game is aoe-heavy, then tanks go in and CC whoever they can and the dps rain nukes on them.zvz can fit only certain amount on screen. and how many you see depends on where you're located in the blob.
@Razvan
it'll honestly depend on how those 100 are setup with spells. if they're all glass cannons, it could be possible for the 30 to remove most of them, maybe even all of them. then you have tactics which could work in the smaller groups favor.
being in a zerg guild could mean they lose 1v1 more often. i've seen that happen in games where the group can do well but the solo-quad often get beat by solo-quad. their only strength is quantity not quality.
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If you have an advantage and you're bad, it doesn't mean you don't have that advantage anymore...
A zerg who is utterly unsuccessful doesn't work in a full loot game, not only because people get mad and leave but also because it's financially unsustainaible. In fact, there's a lot of nuance about zvz: you want people to always listen to the shotcaller (and don't run away even if it turns out to be a suicide mission which will help other group achieve some objective). In the same time, you want them to bring good enough gear. You also don't want them to loot bodies (because it often leads to drama - X stayed back and looted a bunch of bodies, while Y was in the frontline and couldn't loot anything), especially when you're still fighting. Big guilds solve this by having standard zvz guild-approved gear (for different classes) and a small group of people tasked with looting everything and storing it in the guild chest. If someone dies in a CTA, their gear will be replaced by the guild. The recruiters also make sure to recruit a proportionate number of each role.
being in a zerg guild could mean they lose 1v1 more often. i've seen that happen in games where the group can do well but the solo-quad often get beat by solo-quad. their only strength is quantity not quality.
All guilds that wish to have even a little bit of influence have to have strong zergs. And there absolutely is quality in a zerg, especially if the game is aoe-heavy. But I agree with you - most likely these people will not be very good in 1v1. On the other hand, the guilds will be hundreds of people strong. There is no reason to play solo unless you absolutely want to (I never played Albion solo after being in a guild - there were always activities I could join).
Guilds/alliances having unlimited number of players will probably have as side effect demon planet as being way more peaceful than some people think (basically Mercia in Albion). There will only be a handful of alliance which will control vast territories. If there are gankers inside, they will be dealt with quickly. If there's a big zvz going on, everyone will be announced on discord and there'll be a CTA.
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@Razvan said in Map clarity:
@Xzait
It would be easier if you quoted what I said to know the full context. I will assume you argue with the part I said that there are other advantages than player skill and bonusses to raw stats.
If so, comparing a mmo with a 5v5 arpg is just wrong. First of all, if you duo with your buddy, you might be ganked by 4-8 people. In the same light, if you have a 30 active people guild, you can't really zvz a 100 active people guild. So there, player count matters. Then it's of course the financial part of the game. If you're in a top guild, you will have access to expensive resources. You don't have to be particularly good to get recruited, but you have to be very active because the important thing in a zvz is to be there and listen to the shotcaller. How early you started playing might also be a factor here: if you start from day one, you might have some expensive collectibles or a chance of owning a house in a good place or a crafting station in a good town.I didn't see any need to quote anything, coz it seemed like the majority of everything you had posted was about how a players knowledge of the game shouldn't give them an advantage over a player that knows nothing about the game. That it doesn't tie into a horizontal progression game, despite it being the only possible advantage in a horizontal progression game other than a player having gear vs not having gear, or having the brains to carry the right type of gear for the particular task, instead rando whatever gear specialised for something else... which would come down to... you guessed it... Player Knowledge!!
And in my little scenario of League of Legends, I specifically stated that it was a 1 v 1 with the same character and same gear, being evenly matched. That the game CAN be played as a 5 v 5 has nothing to do with it. I even pointed out that it isn't the best example of a game. The was the entire reason i broke it down to extremely specific parametres for the match.
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@Xzait said in Map clarity:
I didn't see any need to quote anything, coz it seemed like the majority of everything you had posted was about how a players knowledge of the game shouldn't give them an advantage over a player that knows nothing about the game.
Well then maybe you should quote where I said that "a players knowledge of the game shouldn't give them an advantage over a player that knows nothing about the game". My point, which was specified multiple times from the beginning of the thread is that the main group who benefits from obstacles not being shown on maps are the gankers who camp the same spot all day every day and the last thing this game needs is to make ganking easier.
That it doesn't tie into a horizontal progression game, despite it being the only possible advantage in a horizontal progression game other than a player having gear vs not having gear
I see that now you also added gear. Anyway, I explained this already... and you're wrong.
And in my little scenario of League of Legends, I specifically stated that it was a 1 v 1 with the same character and same gear, being evenly matched. That the game CAN be played as a 5 v 5 has nothing to do with it. I even pointed out that it isn't the best example of a game. The was the entire reason i broke it down to extremely specific parametres for the match.
First, you didn't specify anything. Second, in the post above I explained why this comparison is completely pointless for Fractured because fair 1v1 pvp will be very rare. If you agree as well that it's irrelevant, why did you post it in the first place?
PS: By the way, this is what I am talking about:
. Basically, all your party gets fast mounts, high mobility and CC skills and spreads over an area. When one sees a target, they announce on discord and all the party comes to their position. Your buddies come, you kill those guys and at the end of the day you split the loot. Of course, from time to time you might run into a proper party (with tank and healer) that your ganking group cannot take, but they can't kill you either because they can't catch you. These guys will obviously know the area by heart because they are there every day. This is the group of people that gets the most advantage from maps not showing ledges. I ganked and was ganked a lot in Albion and in my opinion, this advantage is not necessary.
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@Razvan said in Map clarity:
This is the group of people that gets the most advantage from maps not showing ledges. I ganked and was ganked a lot in Albion and in my opinion, this advantage is not necessary.
that's the whole point of being local. the local knows the land so much better than others.
bad map clarity works best against zergs which need clear space to move. if they funnel then they're susceptible to aoe and traps in the one path. you actually want that. you want a way to easily kill a few or most of them.
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@Razvan said in Map clarity:
gankers
Oh come on man...
I'm really tired coming to every single MMO forum out there, years before the release, and see the same specific group of people constantly crying about "gankers"...
You have Arboreus to play on if you are affraid, as game is designed. End of story.
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@Jetah
First, I'd argue that's not the main point of "settling" to a region. The main reason is the local markets and stashes. This is very little an advantage for locals, and very much an advantage for gankers.
Second, from my experience with zvz your opinion is incorrect. As I explained a few times already you don't need to survey the whole map, but only a few screens away. Chokepoints can hurt you only when you pass them. There will be zergs without scouts at first, but they will either disband or get forced to improve because nobody likes to donate gear.@Gothix
Well, ganking will be one of the major complaining reasons and in this game it's going to be extra frustrating since you lose all the gear on death. Also, what kind of "specific group of people" do you think I'm part of? Unlike the people I argue with here, I used to play Albion in a crystal ranked guild...
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@Razvan said in Map clarity:
@Jetah
First, I'd argue that's not the main point of "settling" to a region. The main reason is the local markets and stashes. This is very little an advantage for locals, and very much an advantage for gankers.
Second, from my experience with zvz your opinion is incorrect. As I explained a few times already you don't need to survey the whole map, but only a few screens away. Chokepoints can hurt you only when you pass them. There will be zergs without scouts at first, but they will either disband or get forced to improve because nobody likes to donate gear.@Gothix
Well, ganking will be one of the major complaining reasons and in this game it's going to be extra frustrating since you lose all the gear on death. Also, what kind of "specific group of people" do you think I'm part of? Unlike the people I argue with here, I used to play Albion in a crystal ranked guild...the fury planet wont have gankers unless it's during the invasion. which i assume will be announced in some manor. if you play on the either of the other 2 planets then you take that risk that you may and will be killed. stashes give a huge advantage to locals. multiple sets of back up gear vs someone without.
and we might not have zvz in this game, although the ff and group mechanics will actually favor it. but we really dont know! again, there's only so many that can fit on the screen which will limit how many you can attack. either you're front line and you can see half the screen or youre near the back and can only see friends. in zvz the chokes actually hurt the zerg.
sizes of fights are pure speculation at this point because we dont know the total population. we dont know if any known alliances will play this.
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I'm personally not a ganker, never been one. I much prefer challenging PvP.
However, I'm the player that strongly supports freedom of play, and absence of mechanical limitations as much as possible.
As much "sandboxy" the game can be, it should be.This goes for everything including ganking.
There should be no programmed mechanics limiting gankers in any way in a PvP open world, besides social mechanics that communities themselves implement!
Anything other that this, and your "sandbox" game, essentially stops being sandbox, and starts to feel like a limited software product, completely draining the appeal out of it.
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Ok folks (Gothix and Jetah), I'm done talking with you on this matter because nothing constructive comes out of this. The problem is simple, you only think of the novelty of some features you never experienced and not how it would realistically impact the gameplay.
The last thing I have to say is this: "no rules because sandbox" was very common in Albion, until it eventually led to massive monopoly and more and more people changed their minds: game being borderline unplayable if you weren't in one of the few huge alliances, a handful of people owning all the town plots (out of which one owned 40%), and then to this. People complained about these so much that last year SBI implemented a lot of features aimed at limiting the size of alliances and town plot monopolies, nerfed the major ganking mount and introduced a bunch of escape mounts.
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@Razvan
see the problem is the map is always detailed enough and nothing is a surprise because 'internet'. I've played UO back in the day and the map was horrible, the cartography sucked but it was great because 'no one knew anything' and wiki's and 'lets play' videos didn't exist. hell i dont remember any meta builds but i think some existed.i've played games since UO (back in the late 90's), DAoC, Rift, WoW, Wildstar, Horizons (it's something else now), Eve Online, and a few which i've forgotten. i've played a wide array of games over the years so i do speak from experience but also fill in some gaps with assumptions.
you dont believe it's constructive because we wont agree with you. i love taking different perspectives on topics and im taking the point of 'minimap shouldn't exist' and 'it shouldn't be detailed like a moba'. if a detailed minimap exist then it should be tied to a profession. in retrospect, i think minimaps make the games easier to play. in Diablo and PoE i watch the minimap more than the actual game because of previously stated reason.
