Player generated quests (work orders)
-
so a 2k deposit is less than the contents value of 200g?? the payout will be less than the value of the goods but the security deposit is higher than the value of the goods.
that's great and all but there are people who play for limited secession time, limited weekly time, or at odd times of a day. they need a way to have things happen without being shackled to the game. even with a menu, you can still hollar out to get whatever you want done.
gold sellers have their own scripts that dont need the game UI at all. some games they dont even use the game client, it's all text based.
-
@Jetah said in Player generated quests (work orders):
so a 2k deposit is less than the contents value of 200g?? the payout will be less than the value of the goods but the security deposit is higher than the value of the goods.
I see. If you opt on putting an absurd deposit, you remove the scamers but end up hurting the legit couriers - not only they not get paid and lose their gear in case they get ganked, but you also lose a lot of money. On top of that, you open the situation in which the courier can be scammed.
Leaving aside the fact that looking at similar games it's easy to see why this feature will be scarcely used, no matter how you put it, it's easily exploitable and in no way better than sorting people by their reputation.@Jetah said in Player generated quests (work orders):
that's great and all but there are people who play for limited secession time, limited weekly time, or at odd times of a day. they need a way to have things happen without being shackled to the game. even with a menu, you can still hollar out to get whatever you want done.
You can do that without this feature if we have a marketplace with buy/trade orders and a chest/bank system with the ability to set privileges.
For example, if I want to move 30ore from town M to town N: I find a courier, go to the chest in town M, create a new tab named "for transport" and place the 30ore in it. I then give the courier the rights to withdraw items from the "for transport" tab. Then I move to the chest in town N where again I create a tab named "for transport" for which I give the courier the rights to deposit items, but not withdraw them. Once this is done, the courier can transport my stuff without ever meeting me in game. And this can be used for various other activities. Let's say you are a high level crafter and X wants items crafted by you in bulk - you go to the chest, create a tab called "crafting order X", give X rights to deposit and withdraw items from that tab. X goes and puts the materials and the payment in the "crafting order X" tab whenever he can. You take the mats and craft the items whenever you can and then put them in "crafting order X" tab. X comes and takes the items. If there's no item quality or crafting focus or other such system, it makes no sense to use a crafter tho.
-
@Razvan said in Player generated quests (work orders):
@Jetah said in Player generated quests (work orders):
so a 2k deposit is less than the contents value of 200g?? the payout will be less than the value of the goods but the security deposit is higher than the value of the goods.
I see. If you opt on putting an absurd deposit, you remove the scamers but end up hurting the legit couriers - not only they not get paid and lose their gear in case they get ganked, but you also lose a lot of money. On top of that, you open the situation in which the courier can be scammed.
Leaving aside the fact that looking at similar games it's easy to see why this feature will be scarcely used, no matter how you put it, it's easily exploitable and in no way better than sorting people by their reputation.@Jetah said in Player generated quests (work orders):
that's great and all but there are people who play for limited secession time, limited weekly time, or at odd times of a day. they need a way to have things happen without being shackled to the game. even with a menu, you can still hollar out to get whatever you want done.
You can do that without this feature if we have a marketplace with buy/trade orders and a chest/bank system with the ability to set privileges.
For example, if I want to move 30ore from town M to town N: I find a courier, go to the chest in town M, create a new tab named "for transport" and place the 30ore in it. I then give the courier the rights to withdraw items from the "for transport" tab. Then I move to the chest in town N where again I create a tab named "for transport" for which I give the courier the rights to deposit items, but not withdraw them. Once this is done, the courier can transport my stuff without ever meeting me in game. And this can be used for various other activities. Let's say you are a high level crafter and X wants items crafted by you in bulk - you go to the chest, create a tab called "crafting order X", give X rights to deposit and withdraw items from that tab. X goes and puts the materials and the payment in the "crafting order X" tab whenever he can. You take the mats and craft the items whenever you can and then put them in "crafting order X" tab. X comes and takes the items. If there's no item quality or crafting focus or other such system, it makes no sense to use a crafter tho.you dont hurt legit couriers. you want insurance to cover your goods, that's the deposit, you want to pay if they successfully deliver, that's their pay. there's no hurting legit people.
how can the courier be scammed? transporting is a risky business. they need to hire help if they want. the world isn't friendly outside the fury planet.
this system is used in Eve Online. i dont know other games that offer open contracts.what's the difference between a ui for contracts and a marketplace? people dont and hate spending time yelling in chat. it's the pure reason why trade/market/etc websites open and people use them. yelling in chat is the worst way to conduct trade.
your system is no different than what i talked about. you're still using a UI for the whole thing but made it worse by needing to be in a city so items can be dropped off. i dont want the courier to know what the goods are. it's one reason why our mail system uses boxes and envelopes.
-
@Jetah said in Player generated quests (work orders):
you dont hurt legit couriers. you want insurance to cover your goods, that's the deposit, you want to pay if they successfully deliver, that's their pay. there's no hurting legit people.
If by deposit you mean the system the agreed sum of money from courier's pocket and if the transport is successful, then he gets the money back. If the transport is unsuccessful, I get the money. In the case of being ganked, on top of losing his gear and not getting paid, he also has to pay you some money. That's a big hole in the pocket. Who wants to be a courier when the risk is so big and the reward not so good?
@Jetah said in Player generated quests (work orders):
how can the courier be scammed? transporting is a risky business. they need to hire help if they want. the world isn't friendly outside the fury planet.
I set up a transport order at 3.5k silver deposit with a 10k silver reward on successful transport (let's assume 10k is big money). I pack a lot of cheap but heavy stuff to identify the courier easier since they will need a mount specialized in carrying weight and put a good silver reward to make the order look legit. When someone picks up the order, I head out of town and PK them claiming their items, the 3.5k silver and getting back my transport items.
@Jetah said in Player generated quests (work orders):
what's the difference between a ui for contracts and a marketplace? people dont and hate spending time yelling in chat. it's the pure reason why trade/market/etc websites open and people use them. yelling in chat is the worst way to conduct trade.
I mean a marketplace where you can set buy/sell orders and see a history of prices, such as this
I assume we are going to have this in Fractured because it's an important feature in other similar games. Also, if we have this, the kill 10 wolves and bring me whatever they drop player-generated quests are pointless.@Jetah said in Player generated quests (work orders):
your system is no different than what i talked about. you're still using a UI for the whole thing but made it worse by needing to be in a city so items can be dropped off. i dont want the courier to know what the goods are. it's one reason why our mail system uses boxes and envelopes.
First of all, I said that remote orders shouldn't be a thing. But if they are a thing, then remote chest management can also be a thing.
Second, that's also my point: house/chest management and rights will already be a thing in the game. Why create a new system when you can use something already planned to achieve the same thing?
We use boxes and envelopes for privacy, security and the fact that some objects are easier to transport this way. In game you mostly care about hiding the value of the transported objects, which is not an issue if you pick a reputable courier (the scope both when looking for someone on the forums and putting restrictions on who can pick up your transport order).
-
Instead of just a board it could be a guild quests
they setup a board and get quests from the genral population to get items build houses or kill monsters.
The members of the guild can then do the requests from the board.
More quests you do the higher rank the guild members will get allowing them to do bigger quests.
rep scores will tell the public how reliable the guild is at finishing certain quests.
Instead of being a list with everyone's score you could have to go to the local tavern and ask around town wich would get NPCs to reveal what a local guild is like
-
legit couriers take that risk. Every transportation company in the world has a similar risk. the world has insurance which is paid every month by the transportation company. the game wont have that so the courier has to pay it out of pocket. gatherers have that same risk, they can be ganked (fury planet aside) while trying to gather, those raw materials can be refined and used against them at a later date. remember that Fractured isn't a safe space (fury planet aside). and yes, people did this very thing, both perspectives, in eve online.
yeah, you can do that a few times. but eventually your name will get around and your orders wont get accepted. maybe the courier sees the 10k reward and decides to hire some help and you can't pk them, now you have to pay out 10k. and just because they accept it doesn't mean they have to complete it right now. eve online has a delivery time too so that you can wait till the number of players are less so you're less likely to pvp.
someone mentioned something about a UI, I can't find whether it was you or someone I'm confusing you/them for.
I dont trust any courier when the game first releases. I might not even trust them after 5 years of playing.
-
@Jetah
@Razvan
With an game generated ledger you wouldn't have to worry about a deposit.-
A Merchant puts out an order for someone to transfer goods from one location to another.
-
Mercenary Company's willing to do the job bid on the order. Merchant accepts one Company's bid.
-
This creates a Debit for the Merchant and a Credit for the Mercenary Co. both of which is recorded in the ledger.
-
If the job is not completed due to unfortunate circumstances then the credit and debit is wiped clean and the only loss are the goods being transported and the Mercenary's personal loot.
-
-
@Crowdac said in Player generated quests (work orders):
@Jetah
@Razvan
With an game generated ledger you wouldn't have to worry about a deposit.-
A Merchant puts out an order for someone to transfer goods from one location to another.
-
Mercenary Company's willing to do the job bid on the order. Merchant accepts one Company's bid.
-
This creates a Debit for the Merchant and a Credit for the Mercenary Co. both of which is recorded in the ledger.
-
If the job is not completed due to unfortunate circumstances then the credit and debit is wiped clean and the only loss are the goods being transported and the Mercenary's personal loot.
i want to be paid for the loss of the goods being transported. i dont have to personally hold the deposit, the "system" can, but i want it if the courier isn't able to deliver the goods.
-
-
@Jetah The ledgers main purpose would be to dissuaded scams, record transactions, and act as escrow similar to what @Annatar had mentioned in the original post. My other post was more an example of how a ledger could work in game than how i thought it should function. Your qualms seem to be more about the orders terms, but we might as well play with the idea.
There is going to be an inherent monetary risk in transporting goods, the only decision to be made is who the risk falls on. An argument for not having deposits is, entry fee's for those who wish to play the role of protecting and transporting goods, would be lower. However, the comprise is pretty clear. Give players options in terms of orders like stated in the original post.
One option being that the order may or may not require a deposit by the transporter.
-
Want to +1 this as a general idea/goal.
The discussion so far has pointed out possible pitfalls of various ways of realizing the idea, and possible work-arounds, which is a great help for devs & evidence of a strong player community.... as long as posts don't get too picayune or combative to stay constructive.
So I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful input on any idea presented in these forums, while asking anyone who's preparing a post commenting on new ideas to take a deep breath and re-read what they've written, asking, "Is this comment constructive? Does it respect others in the discussion as I would hope to be respected?"
This isn't a comment on ANY of the posts/comments above. This is a general PSA bc this forum is well-constructed to make new ideas into game-realities - but new ideas are often tender shoots & stomping too hard on the possible problems that might arise can have the unintended effect of killing excellent possibilities trying to grow.
-
if there's no deposit then it's just a purchase. the deposit is there to entice the courier to get the goods to the destination.
-
@Jetah said in Player generated quests (work orders):
legit couriers take that risk. Every transportation company in the world has a similar risk. the world has insurance which is paid every month by the transportation company. the game wont have that so the courier has to pay it out of pocket. gatherers have that same risk, they can be ganked (fury planet aside) while trying to gather, those raw materials can be refined and used against them at a later date. remember that Fractured isn't a safe space (fury planet aside). and yes, people did this very thing, both perspectives, in eve online.
The economies of real world, Eve and Fractured are not comparable because they're on different scales. The risk involved are also of totally different natures. Besides, even in real world you pick the middleman based on reputation: you'd rather deliver through DHL or some shady guy from the corner of the street?
I know that is risky going outside in a full loot PVP game. I'm not arguing this and I'm also not arguing if the balance of transport orders should lean more towards the couriers or the people employing them, I'm saying that the risks involved in this system would make it even less popular.
What I'm arguing about is the usefulness of this system since at this economy scale most of the playerbase won't use this feature because there are other, better options. In most aspects Fractured will be a lot more like Albion (which can be downloaded for free now) and a lot less like Eve.About the second paragraph - this is not how people gank in this kind of games. Instead, you go out with a bunch of friends on fast mounts, with high mobility builds and cover a big area. When someone sees a vulnerable target, they announce their position on discord and everyone attacks. This makes transports in high profile areas very risky, unless you do it as a guild or at very odd hours.
@Jetah said in Player generated quests (work orders):
someone mentioned something about a UI, I can't find whether it was you or someone I'm confusing you/them for.
Clearly not me. I don't care about player interaction, I care about the game being released as soon as possible with the basic functionality working correctly.
~/---------------------/~
@Crowdac
Leaving aside the fact that my whole point is "this system will be used rarely by very few people so it's not worth wasting development time on it - at least not now", your system is a step back to the first scenario. The transported goods will always be of higher value than whatever the merchant pays the courier. If the courier wants to scam the merchant, he can ask a friend to PK him outside of town and not get the payment, but get the contents of the package for a 2min job. Now, the problem is to offer the merchant enough tools to make sure that the courier is reputable. My point is that since it will end up being an obscure feature, instead of taking development time on it, it's better to ignore it completely because the few people who will need items transported via strangers can find reputable couriers on forums (and I linked the Albion forums as an example).~/---------------------/~
All in, I think this suggestion is a neat idea, but the two already discussed possible types of quests (fetch materials and transports) won't be used much. Imo, this is the most reasonable suggestion so far: https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/9769/player-generated-quests-work-orders/5
-
While I do understand the preference of most people in a game for easy trading by auction houses, items by mail, fast travelling etc. I would like to share what happened in the last game I played: Worlds Adrift.
There was no auction house, no item mail and travelling to other zones was kind of risky as there were elemental walls which could make you lose your ship and all items on it.
There was an older lady who started a trading post (protected by several players/guild) as it was in an open PvP environment. Just by using Discord as a way to show the merchandise and let people negotiate possible transports as well.
The game had 3 commodities: high-end materials to build your ship with, clothing to show off and fuel. Fuel became the currency for this economy. Several people stepped in for protection and regular transport through the walls.
As I do know this game will not be the same. I still very much like it a lot more than an anonymous auction house. I sincerely hope I can become part of a similar system in Fractured !
-
@Yitra The problem with removing these features is that the players end up spending a lot of time on boring activities. Traveling is interesting the first time you visit a region, but walking 30min every time you want to farm is not so fun. Same with trading. Besides, there are well thought limitations on these systems - the markets are local and you can't teleport while carrying stuff in your inventory.
-
The best implementation of this I've seen recently is a game called ECO. The major difference being there is no element of PvP in that game.. I've seen people discuss this topic at length for years, but it just hasn't been done in a comprehensive way.
IMO, the major issue in more recent years is the directions games have gone.. I don't want to say instant gratification.. but time is a valuable asset and people aren't made to sink as much of it in to games. The point I'm getting at is.. Systems like this don't seem to make sense the way games are made now.
-
@Razvan said in Player generated quests (work orders):
@Yitra The problem with removing these features is that the players end up spending a lot of time on boring activities. Traveling is interesting the first time you visit a region, but walking 30min every time you want to farm is not so fun. Same with trading. Besides, there are well thought limitations on these systems - the markets are local and you can't teleport while carrying stuff in your inventory.
If travelling is a risk itself (as it was in Worlds Adrift by going through walls), it does not have to be boring. Besides the PvP aspect, the possibilities fractured have with the environment (heat, cold, sand storm ?) could make travelling alone not boring, but a challenge. Trading being boring is a personal matter IMHO. I am not saying everybody should like that
The combination of the risk of delivering goods and manual trading makes for interesting gameplay, people can specialize in. So it still is there for those who don't want to spend time travelling and trading, but it is there without a whole system.
-
@Vortech
Could you give some examples of what kind of player-generated quests existed in ECO?@Yitra
fast travel: If my daily gameplay time is about 3 hours, I'd rather not waste 30min of it on traveling. Teleportation can coexist with travels being risky due to the fact that you can't teleport with items on you.
markets: Half of the game is full loot pvp. If you die, you need to find someone who sells the items you're using which can become quite frustrating until you are rich enough to buy them in bulk. I really see no disadvantages of local marketplaces / auction houses.
-
@Razvan said in Player generated quests (work orders):
fast travel: If my daily gameplay time is about 3 hours, I'd rather not waste 30min of it on traveling. Teleportation can coexist with travels being risky due to the fact that you can't teleport with items on you.
markets: Half of the game is full loot pvp. If you die, you need to find someone who sells the items you're using which can become quite frustrating until you are rich enough to buy them in bulk. I really see no disadvantages of local marketplaces / auction houses.I totally understand that. It would be a lot more difficult for people who indeed need new gear every 10 minutes or so
It just add some nice gameplay for those not focussing on killing other players for fun (like myself). Let's see how things pan out in reality.
-
@Razvan said in Player generated quests (work orders):
@Vortech
Could you give some examples of what kind of player-generated quests existed in ECO?In ECO they are contracts, and they can be almost anything.. The contract is built with variables, see below:
More here: https://eco.gamepedia.com/Contracts
-
Eve Online has similar, which is the system i'm familiar with.
https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/206758389-Item-Exchange-Contract
https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203218982-Courier-Contracts
https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203280371-Auction-ContractsI'd love to see a 'world knowledge' system in place that helps advance the technology of the game. gold/currency, written contracts, markets, auctions, carts, etc could be unlocked similar to how a RTS game is done.
