Best posts made by Tuoni

@humerus said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:

@Logain This is actually quite frightening ngl. Horizontal gear seems like an all around terrible design decision. If all gear is pretty equal in it's rarity and median effectiveness then there are no endgame goals and endgame PvM content would just rely on the quantity of the dropped items. I might be overlooking something but from what I can tell such game would not be very fun at all.

With this kind of system there is high risk that people will bore fast. My biggest concerns relates to the gear, crafting, trading and economics. All these factors are related to each other because if everyone can easily craft the best gear, that removes the need of trade, which effects to the markets. On top of that, if crafting will be an underwhelming activity and gearing will not offer much for character progression, those will have negative impact to keep players interested.

Yes I understand if the focus is in horizontal progression and how it keeps power gap between player close to each other, however, this also removes a lot from character progression and serious goals. Even the progression would concentrate in horizontal direction that does not need to mean zero vertical progression. In my opinion it is important to have vertical progression as well but the power gaps can be calm even there would be several tiers.

@Razvan said in PvE Planet with PvP:

@Tuoni
I disagree with Arboreus being the best solution as currently planned. There are three obvious problems: OW spots which cannot be disputed (and will result in a lot of griefing), dirt-cheap local resources compared to other regions because there's no risk in gathering, and very expensive town plots later on because there are no sieges. Unless they are willing to make compromises, such as instanced dungeons for the first problem, I don't see how these can be solved.

Imo, the planets should have been: no-loot pvp with flagging on Arboreus, full-loot pvp with flagging on human planet, unrestricted pvp on demon planet.

Okay perhaps the best solution was a little bit too much to say, especailly in situation where we do not know how all the details will work in practice. Primarily I referred to full loot and rare open world PvP encounters which I think can work very well in Arboreus, depending of implementation of course.

I agree with your point that open world spots would need something around them, and perhaps the solution is in PvE factions which players need to fight with. Leaving the owning of spots only for politics can be quite boring, however, that could be one of the ways.

The risk with gathering can be raised by making PvE content more dangerous especially around resource hot spots. In addition, something can be done also with respawn timers and quantities, however, there is still risk that resources are gathered much more in Arboreus when compared to other planets.

No-loot with PvP flagging could work as well and I am sure that most of the PvE oriented players would actually like that. However, perhaps the debuffs for evil players are so high that beastmen are actually more threat to demons rather than vice versa. Therefore, full loot would have its place and makes it also more risky to demons enter soil of Arboreus.

Here is one example how Arboreus and it "zones" could work. This picture bases on idea if there would be one huge continent so imagine the map under this picture. If there will be several continents it will be actually much easier to create different kind of regions with different danger levels and rules.

Arboreus landmass could be ~ 83% of PvE and ~ 17% of PvE/PvP.

Arboreus could be distributed to three main dangerous levels: Safe, Mediocre and Hardcore.

It will be also distributed for six smaller "zones" about 16% - 17% each.

• Harcore PvE = ~ 17%
• Hardcore PvE/PvP = ~17%
• Mediocre PvE = ~ 33%
• Safe PvE = ~ 33%

There is no need to have strict borders between zones and those can overlap smoothly.

Colored dots marks landing spots (gates) from other planets and the circles around those the zone of influence where visitors can reach from that specific gate. Perhaps different gates have different values and blue for example has easier access but it also limits the area you have time to explore.

I hope people will not take this as precise suggestion because it is more like a sketch how the Arboreus could be distributed. I tried to take account different kind of player types, and obviously the idea is to offer different kind of PvE players content they are interested.

@humerus said in PvE Planet with PvP:

@Tuoni Concerning the last paragraph: it works exactly the opposite. Beastmen have the freedom to travel between all 3 planets while demons can only invade Syn during aclipses. I'm guessing that evil demons can't access Arb at allm but I'm not sure.

Nope. Demons can travel to other planets and perhaps even easier than other races. Eclipses are a specific event which happens between Tartaros and Syndesia. If demons could not travel to Arboreus how they would get access to unique resources or unlock certain abilities which need exploration to other planets?

"The prime way to travel to other planets, Stargates require a great deal of group effort to be summoned and don’t last for long. After crossing one, the time you’re allowed to stay on the new planet is limited and varies according to your race, your alignment and your destination. Demons are a notable exception to this rule, having been gifted by Babilis the ability to travel to other worlds more easily to bring terror to the other much hated races. However, the penalties they’ll be subject to are no smaller than those suffered by the other races… and sometimes, actually worse."

@Gothix said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:

Progression is still progression, regardless of what type it is, older character will always be more versatile / efficient than fresh character.

There isn't any sense in claiming otherwise.

The point of horizontal progression, though, is that power gap between old character and fresh character will not be as large as it would be in vertically progressed game.

No levels, equal base character stats, and limited skill slots in skill bar, will still give a full fresh character, chance against old character, because playing skill will play a significant role here.

In vertically progressed MMO, fresh character would not even have a chance regardless of playing skill.

---

Of course, we are talking about fresh characters here, not fresh players. Fresh players will obviously still have much to learn, so from that fact alone, they will be behind old players, that already learned many tricks.

However, if old, experienced player, creates a fresh alt, he may very well beat many other players (that are using progressed avatars) with his own freshly made alt, purely through his playing skills, and experience.

The above would not be possible in vertically progressed MMO.

Horizontal progression is progression as well but it is less interesting when compared to vertical progression. Also you have to remember that there is not just these two extremes, vertical and horizontal, and there can be any kind of balance between these two. Having a 100% horizontal can be boring as hell less tempting and having 100% vertical will create too much power gap between players. However, having ~ 75% horizontal and ~ 25% vertical progression could be a lot of better already. Creating just small power gaps between players (nothing overpowered), keep the main focus on horizontal, but still offer calm vertical progression so players have more interesting and meaningfull goals to achieve. In addition, horizontal progression is not just a character progression thing because it can have negative impact for crafting, markets and loots as well. Vertical progression offers more longevity because in general it appeals more on people than horizontal.

@humerus Actually I did not think that you were pushing PvP in Arboreus and I guess this happened quite little in this thread anyway. This been more a problem in earlier discussions related to the same topic.

I remember that Syndesia is planned to be the center of trading and I guess most of the resources from Arboreus and Tartaros are transported there by inhabitant or humans. Therefore, it might be more usual way to get the different resources to buy those from Syndesia where demons and beastmen have easier access. However, it can be interesting have that opportunity to go gather those resources by yourself but with a very high risk.

@Gothix said in PvE Planet with PvP:

there will always be players who will try to "push their own agenda" on "any side".

This happens too much.

PvP players wanting more PvP on Arboreus, and PvE players pushing for less PvP on other two planets.

Usually PvP players wants more PvP Arboreus because they want to kill players who do not want to PvP but rarely PvE players demand less PvP in other planets. I do not remember a single post where someone would demand less PvP e.g. in Tartaros but I remember several where people wants more PvP in Arboreus.

It's simply that part of people do not care for others, are selfish, and you can't expect any better from them.

But we trust that such players will not influence devs away from their vision.

From development point of view it would be much better if people could be as objective as possible and not just push their own agenda. It is important examine the discussed topic from the right audience pov, e.g. now when we are talking about PvP in Arboreus we have to remember that this planet is planned from the beginning to be content for PvE centric players. That is why PvP should not exist at all or it should be very limited. Most important is that those who want to avoid 100% PvP would also have that chance.

@Specter said in PvE Planet with PvP:

@Tuoni That's not what I meant. If you're selling a "Demon resource" from Tartaros, you don't have to worry that an Arboreus player is able to safely gather "Demon resource" on Arboreus as well because that resource is unique to Tartaros. With each planet having their own unique resources, nobody has to worry about everyone going to Arboreus to farm resources there because it's the safest planet. If someone wants Tartaros resources, they will have no choice but to go to Tartaros to gather it, or alternatively buy it from someone who did. No resource will be strictly better or worse though, just different. With that said, I do expect resources from dangerous areas to be more valuable than from safe areas.

If all resources are different in every planet then there will not be that much (or at all) problems. However, if same resources can be gathered from several planets that will shake the balance of markets. And yeah, I also expect resources from dangerous areas be more valueable.

@Yitra said in PvE Planet with PvP:

A lot of thoughts of PvP players why the PvE planet should be altered, is it only me who finds that Ironic?
Arboreus is a PvE planet for good reasons, have you ever tried to keep your fur clean and in good condition, with all that human and demon blood on you? Not to mention the taste if you have to lick it off you.......

Actually if you read the whole discussion there is not much promoting PvP on Arboreus more than what is planned from developers behalf. People are more like trying to figure out how the limited PvP will be implemented. At the moment all we know is very high level stuff and we do not have that much concreteness.

I can admit that I am most likely going to play a human as my main character, however, I am also going to create a beastmen alt for gathering and to play special PvE content what is not available for humans. Perhaps I am not the core audience of Arboreus but maybe nevertheless close enough to make reasonable and objective suggestions.

Anyway, I would actually like to hear from those who are planning to play mainly on Arboreus, how they imagine the PvP should be implemented in the PvE planet? Or is the original plan from devs behalf too much from the beginning and there should not be PvP at all?

@KairosVal There will be log out timers for sure which will be most likely different in safe zones and in open world, e.g. 10 secs in home or city, and 60 secs in open world. One really good option is to tie the connection break to these timers depending where your character is at the moment when the connection is lost.

I am also interested is there separated bag and full loot system because who will just loot bag if they have option to take everything? Yeah I know there is consequences but if the thievery flag is 24h and murder 48h, and on top of that you take some extra reputation/karma hit, that is in most cases (if not in every) a who cares type of thing.

Developers of Albion Online assured that they will not change B2P system to F2P, and hey look what happened later. Albion has been a F2P over a year now and things are going great and they have raised from a niche to one of the most popular MMORPGs. However, we could say that Albion is "F2P" but in practice the gaming experience will be horrible without "optional" monthly subscription a.k.a. premium package. Therefore, it is possible to make that change later and save the game if numbers are dropping too much. However, it is important for Dynamight Studios to get some income now so I would not see F2P as an option at the moment but perhaps after release if the situation demands that.

@Yitra I know it is close what developers has planned but still the concreteness is missing, like how the things really goes in practice. It is very easy to say that most of the PvE planet is relatively safe from PvP, invading Arboreus is a group effort and evil characters will be debuffed. That is few years old information and very high level stuff.

@Razvan It is true that you cannot never trust all players to behave like normal people and if there is a tiny chance to take advantage of something or there is a loophole which can be used for unintented way, someone will do that.

Good example would be that 30 minutes timer what evil characters can stay in Arboreus. First we could asume that the max radius would be 15 minutes because that demon needs to get back to the portal before time runs out.. right? Wrong! If there is a chance to roam and kill other players who crosses your path it will be done for fun and tears regardless the raid will end up for own death.

Camping is also one very usual method which can be used wrong so many ways and if there will be that player collision.. oh boy. xD

@KairosVal First, to be honest, this is very cheap way to handle the gear progression, I get it, it is easy from development point of view when you have only few different gear pieces and you just gamble with the passive stats. Moreover, this creates a situation where there is as much different enchanted gear pieces as much there is enchanters. This can easily lead to situation that the supply does not meet with the demand because there will not be gear pieces available people actually want. Albion Online had (in one point of development) a gear system where the abilities and passives where selected during the crafting. This caused that the markets were filled with products that did not sell. SBI had to change the system so players can freely select the abilities and passives they want to use. I can see that this similar problem will come ahead also in Fractured.

From PvE point of view you can plan in advance what kind of resistances you want for your gear but in PvP that is impossible. You never know what you will face from your opponents. Also those tiers should be in gear and not in enchants.

I can see the possibilities in enchanting system and I found it somewhat interesting. However, crafting physical products is much more appealing than enchanting passives on items. In my opinion items should be the main product and enchanting the nice bonus on top of that and not vice versa. This also made me wonder that is those enchants permanent or can those be changed somehow without loosing resources? What is the return rate of used resources if those enchanted items are salvaged? I can see how this kind of enchanting system works in single player games or in MMOs where is not a player-driven economy in use and the gear is more intended to be personal, but trying to create a working economy with all those variations sounds very hard.

@Jetah said in PvE Planet with PvP:

@Tuoni

the Demons are auto ported off the planet after 30 minutes. so anywhere within a 30m radius will be reachable.

And from where is that information?

"Even worse, you are only allowed to stay on Arboreus for half an hour at once, and you are quickly drained of all vital energies if you step into a Good-only area."

If someone is drained out of vital energies that would in my understanding mean rather death than teleporting out of the planet. Moreover, why on earth demons would be treated so light? Does not make much sense tbh.

@Gothix said in What is the main reason why you want to play Fractured?:

1. GvG PvP, fight for territory control and resources, engaging politics and group conflicts, social mechanics

I would add GvGs to my list as well. It goes atm on place 6. and if implement well it will be much higher on my list.

@Gothix said in PvE Planet with PvP:

@Tuoni said in PvE Planet with PvP:

they should die like beastmen on Tartaros.

Beastmen might not die if they are organized and have healers with them.
They will just be at disadvantage due to debuffs.

They may in theory stay forever on Tartaros.

I would say that eventually they will die because the debuffs stacks.

"..The Evil God enjoys stacking curses on the poor fellows, who could end up dying just because of them.."

Therefore, we could consider that demons have a hard timer 30 minutes and beastmen have a soft timer based on stacking debuffs. Even the beastmen timer would be averagely more unforgiving it might still be the case that beastmen will have multiple times harder because the environment is much more dangerous in general.

@Razvan said in What I "DO NOT" want to see in this game:

Royals in Albion are not completely useless. First, they offer new players a gradual start (huge IP cap with no pvp -> big IP cap with flagged pvp but no looting -> IP cap with full loot flagged pvp -> no IP cap, unrestricted full loot pvp).

The faction wars have enliven nicely the yellow zone PvP activity.

Then, it's the only place from which you can get t2/t3 resources to craft higher tier mats. Royals have a much better enchant rate for t4 and t5 nodes and it's the only place where you can farm faction points. A more obscure thing would be inis mon (yellow zone), the only place that drops the bone marrow (to craft rageclaw).

In Albion the need of lower tier resources is build wisely and that way even the cheapest and lowest resources will be always viable and needed.

The interesting thing is how the differences between zones in Albion are just loot values, IP cap and pvp rules. If you want to play Albion just for pve and gathering, you can play in the blue/yellow zone where you have all the pve content without pvp. You get low tier loot, but thanks to do IP cap and repair prices, it doesn't matter because you get exactly the kind of stuff you'd use and you never lose them. These being said, I never met anyone who decided to "live" in these zones.

Problem from PvE players point of view is that Albion does not actually offer much blue/yellow zone PvE content on top of those few dungeons. So the end-game content for them is very narrow unless you are willing to step to the red zones. Therefore, from PvE players point of view Arboreus will be huge when compared to Albion's system. I knew some people and few smaller guilds who played only or mostly in safe zones but I am not sure if they decided at some point take the step for the red/black zones. I think it is a natural continuum after your financial situation is established and losing lower tier gear is easily replaceble.

In a way, if we want to compare Fractured to Albion, I'd say it's more like: Arboreus = blue + yellow + HCE; Syndesia = red zone; Tartaros = black zone.

Yes this is how I see it as well, however, in Albion those zones are unequal, laddered by tiers, but in Fractured those will be equal which is very interesting.

My main confusion is that Fractured devs say all those zones would drop top gear (as long as it is top gear stat-wise, it doesn't matter what it's crafted from). Imagine if SBI decided to introduce in blue/yellow zones enchanted t3 resources up to 3.8 (so, 3.5 = t8 and 3.8 = 8.3). This is exactly how I see the game balance in Fractured.

I have understood as well that all planets can produce same tier gear but the different resources offers different flavors on them. I am personally concerned of the crafting and enchanting system planned for Fractured and it looks like the enchanting will have kind of big role when compared to gear itself. I am not sure what will be the tier distribution in Fractured but what I have understood there will be at least 2 tiers of gear and 3 tiers of enchanting. Also we do not have knowledge how many tiers there will be total and how much IP gear or enchanting tiers will provide.

Lets presume we will have 3 different gear and 3 different enchanting tiers in use. In addition, if one gear tier is equal to one enchanting tier then it would be easy to create easily understandable tier system also for Fractured. Therefore, there would be 6 tier system in use starting from level 1 gear with no enchants (1.0) and ending to level 3 gear with 3 enchants (3.3).

T1 = 1.0
T2 = 1.1 or 2.0
T3 = 1.2 or 2.1 or 3.0
T4 = 1.3 or 2.2 or 3.1
T5 = 2.3 or 3.2
T6 = 3.3

@Kralith Well said. Most important thing is that developers are awere of the risks what will happen if too much power is left on the hands of players, and they have planned some mechanics to prevent a total world domination. In perfect gaming world there will be quite equal distribution of cities between various of guilds where also the smallest ones has a chance to compete. However, this is more like a dream rather than reality, and finding a balance in city wars is at least a huge challenge. Anyhow, a longer test phase (I presume Beta 1) will show which direction the system is actually going, but I also predict that the first one will not be the last one.

@FibS Sure but the currency is not always the best where to compare because if we think only the Euro countries the average salaries varies a lot. In addition, a low value of currency is not a guaranty of low level salaries either like e.g. in Sweden or Norway. Therefore, from sales & marketing point of view it is better compare countries and their average salaries between each other rather than just the currencies.