Real Crafting
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if everyone is following the same rules is it truly art? art is about being free. Sandbox games are about being free too.
i know the whole video game system is built around rules but RNG helps the 'roll a die' type thing. sometimes you have a seasoned mechanic make a mistake, sometimes its a really bad mistake. I'm not talking ArcheAge RNG where you'll break an item at tier 10 thus losing it. but items that are crafted could have a small range, lets say for Fractured, just 10 points. It could use the tenths decimal as well to get 20 options. It makes the higher numbers worth more but doesn't mean you'll never get a high roll.
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I am not a huge fan of RNG either, however, without any RNG game can be really unsurprising as well. I would say it is more like how RNG will be used. All kind of loot tables are based on RNG and also critical hits for example, and I do not see any problems there.
RNG can spice up a little crafting too so it won't become extremely static and boring. If RNG can cause negative effects or even destroy the product in process, that is ofc something what most people hate for sure. However, if RNG can make you create a better quality item or save some materials in the process, then the RNG is not so bad. Especially in situation where crafter can have influence to the RNG percentage with crafting experience and proper tools.
It is also important to take account that RNG will eventually turn almost (with some tolerance ofc) to static number when sampling is high enough. So in short run anything can happen, but with long run the numbers will settle close to average. Meaning if you have +30% chance to craft a good quality sword. You might be lucky with first attempts and get even 3/5 good quality swords or even 0/5 if you are unlucky. However, after 100 attempts you will averagely get 30/100 good swords based on probability calculations.
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A game is not a game unless there is some element of chance involved. I see all crafted items having base stats with stats added based upon materials used. Then add in a small amount of stats based purely on RNG. That makes almost every created item have unique stats.
Anyway it sounds like the devs have already figured out how to do crafting. Sounds more like original UO style where everything crafted is the same. The truly unique will be controlled by the availability of the the best resources.
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@Tuoni said in Real Crafting:
It is also important to take account that RNG will eventually turn almost (with some tolerance ofc) to static number when sampling is high enough. So in short run anything can happen, but with long run the numbers will settle close to average.
Actually no... that's the point of RNG, it is always RNG, and there is an actual RNG chance that some player will always have good results, while other player will always have bad results (or most of the time).
This is what I hate about RNG. Specific players benefiting only on luck, while others having poor results most of the time.
I much prefer when player effort (and brain) are the sole factors in players success rate.
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and someone will post how to get said 'best stats' and others will just copy it. thus making crafting take no skill.
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@Jetah said in Real Crafting:
if everyone is following the same rules is it truly art? art is about being free. Sandbox games are about being free too.
Who said everyone would be following the same rules? Music is about creating your own rules, and then following them to see where they take you.
i know the whole video game system is built around rules but RNG helps the 'roll a die' type thing. sometimes you have a seasoned mechanic make a mistake, sometimes its a really bad mistake. I'm not talking ArcheAge RNG where you'll break an item at tier 10 thus losing it. but items that are crafted could have a small range, lets say for Fractured, just 10 points. It could use the tenths decimal as well to get 20 options. It makes the higher numbers worth more but doesn't mean you'll never get a high roll.
I'm with Gothix: I hate RNG.
I consider reliance on RNG lazy development, and really, lazy gaming.For instance, I played an 80's game called Super Boulderdash, in which there were two kinds of mobs: fireflies, and butterflies. The fireflies always followed the left hand, and the butterflies always followed the right hand.
Those were two very simple rules, but depending on obstacles and player actions, could result in human-unpredictable movement of emergent complexity. That's brilliant, like chess.
It leaves a great deal of headroom for player skill and experience to exploit the complexity, instead of the gameplay being dumbed down by RNG.Imagine, on the other hand, if chess were RNG-based: everything had HP, chances to hit, ranges of damage, etc. The rules would be more complicated, but less emergent, less deep. The gameplay would no longer be about seeing many moves ahead, and would be dumbed down.
RNG is a mask, and games that rely on it are hiding a lack of real gameplay on the part of the game, and real skill on the part of the gamers. Which, no doubt, is why it's so popular.
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@Morgion I really like the sound of your scientific method, my only addition would be to have an in-game wrap that automatically stored each mini game attempt and results in a journal/recipe book. Once the result is known (say, ingredients= 3x. 7y, 4z, method= stirred 3 times, heated 20deg, 4 minutes , results = 90% proof Dark Berry Poison, effects= etc. etc.) you are then given the option to confirm, or delete the current batch details, so that you don't have to remember or externally record such knowledge, but you subsequently still have to carry out the known sequence correctly each time, thereby combining knowledge and skill without too much admin. Or, you could even go one step further if desired and make the ability to write a learnable knowledge that had to be gained first, in order to use such a recipe book. The possibilities are endless.
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I personally don't want to go through a complicated process that takes a significant amount of time just to create one item.
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@Farlander I think crafting will be a real time process in one of the spotlights it mentions tanning taking a similar time as it would in real life
https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/8621/fractured-content-pills-week-22-2019?page=1
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Most powerful secrets are never posted. The handful of people that are able to discover them (after significant effort) keep them a secret, specially if its connected to profit (selling this crafted item).
I always think back on original edition of The Secret World and it's amazing complexity of deck building. How each skill in deck affected another one and players who place significant effort (and had decent IQ) managed to create overpoweded decks simply by using their brain and placing an effort in good deal of parsing and experimentation.
Now there were people that wrote tutorials on web and posted some very nice OP decks... however, the best decks were never posted, trust me.
I know because I played in perhaps the worlds top guild, with few players, and the decks we made and used were never given out... those "OP decks" posted on web (that become meta, and were widely accepted as cookie cutter builds) were not even close to the decks we created and used.
Those very best decks were kept as the top secret never to be shared with the rest of the world.
To this day I'm still probably the only player in the world that soloed a nightmare dungeon boss, pre Tokyo (when 10.5.5 was max gear). I never gave out the deck that I used, and process of how I used it to anyone.
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@Gothix said in Real Crafting:
@Tuoni said in Real Crafting:
It is also important to take account that RNG will eventually turn almost (with some tolerance ofc) to static number when sampling is high enough. So in short run anything can happen, but with long run the numbers will settle close to average.
Actually no... that's the point of RNG, it is always RNG, and there is an actual RNG chance that some player will always have good results, while other player will always have bad results (or most of the time).
This is what I hate about RNG. Specific players benefiting only on luck, while others having poor results most of the time.
I much prefer when player effort (and brain) are the sole factors in players success rate.
Actually yes. You should check probability calculation (like I mentioned in earlier post) and how it works. There is no just thing that some people get always bad results and some good.
I was wondering, how loot drops can be done without any RNG? Critical hit chances? Parry chances? Dodge chance? Damage scale? Resist chances? So without any RNG involved you can make the most boring and static combat seen ever.
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video games have best stats. you dont lose a music match and have your stuff taken.
that'll suck because gear is suppose to be easily replaceable. if it takes 12 hours to make hide and it takes 15 minutes to lose a whole set then people wont play. the long hours for crafting isn't easily replaceable.
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@Jetah it may take 12 hours (probs not maybe 2 or 3) , and give you enough mats to make 5 or 6 amours , or even you can do 100s of leathers at once i mean tanning leather is just piss in a pot and put the leather in , so if the tub is big enough you could do 100s, hopefully the time vs fun is balanced appropriately
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@Tuoni said in Real Crafting:
I was wondering, how loot drops can be done without any RNG? Critical hit chances? Parry chances? Dodge chance? Damage scale? Resist chances? So without any RNG involved you can make the most boring and static combat seen ever.
Oh, I've seen interesting combat and loot drops done without RNG.
My favorite loot drop system is probably Gothic 1/2s. You got the weapon the enemy was using, and for animals, what you had the skill to butcher.As I recall, chests weren't random, either; special gear could be found in secret locations. In that case, it was the difference between a hand-crafted world and a procedurally-generated world.
As to combat, Hero Academy had deterministic combat, including buffs/criticals/armor/attack/etc. (sometimes involving teamwork, using a consumable, or standing on a special location), and I thoroughly enjoyed that. Of course, I like chess, too.
I've also thought about a system of sliding combat variables to replace RNG (since RNG is a kind of kludge to represent the massive numbers of real-world variables): so, say, if your final dodge number is higher than the enemy's final attack number, you will always dodge: but stamina, armor, number of opponents, terrain, wounds, your own chosen attack type, etc. could all combine to lower your final dodge skill. AoE would bypass dodge (so a rock, paper, scissors effect there), and so on.
I think that could be a robust combat system, if well-balanced.
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@Xzoviac Ah yes I do remember that. LIF had the same exact thing for processing hides. You had to refine your metals as well. It was a lengthy process in the game to craft. Wonder what the time variant is going to be on processing raw materials for crafting. That alone will probably drive alot of players out of the market and make crafting more viable for profit.
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@Roccandil with secret chest and treasures has the problem, that those are secret maybe once and it totally excludes rare drop mechanics. With RNG there can be several random spawning locations with random loot, so why not use system like that if it works about 1000 times better?
Also RNG is a core element of RPGs, so I would leave chess away from this.
Finally, I am sure that most of the MMORPG players wants to see RNG elements in the game. Without that the game will become really boring and predictable pretty fast.
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I would kinda prefer to not see gear dropped at all. Only resources, and then gear would have to be player crafted.
But I guess in loot drop system, some RNG is ok.
RNG I was talking about was mostly about combat and crafting. I just prefer those be skill dependent without lottery factor.
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@Gothix said in Real Crafting:
I would kinda prefer to not see gear dropped at all. Only resources, and then gear would have to be player crafted.
But I guess in loot drop system, some RNG is ok.
RNG I was talking about was mostly about combat and crafting. I just prefer those be skill dependent without lottery factor.
The economy in Fractured is entirely player driven with equipment and items crafted by players.
(quote from the wiki)
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@Tuoni said in Real Crafting:
@Roccandil with secret chest and treasures has the problem, that those are secret maybe once and it totally excludes rare drop mechanics. With RNG there can be several random spawning locations with random loot, so why not use system like that if it works about 1000 times better?
Also RNG is a core element of RPGs, so I would leave chess away from this.
Finally, I am sure that most of the MMORPG players wants to see RNG elements in the game. Without that the game will become really boring and predictable pretty fast.
Yeah, I'm with Gothix: I'd rather not see random loot drop.
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bad gear similar to gray or worn tier could drop. it could give materials to those that break them down.
