Legends need to change
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Right now legends are not really a feasible PvPvE event simply due to the cost of the materials to summon them.
Imo, legends should be a much more accessible PvPvE world event, simply because it'll encourage users to have more content to rally around and have fun experiences.
There are only two things needed to improve Legends to make them a much more accessible and competitive feature.
i) Remove the need for materials to summon a legend
ii) Everyone in the continent should have a message saying that the legend has been summoned ( not just give an announcement on death ).With number (ii) legends can actually be a proper PvPvE event which it simply isn't now. You need to turn on neutral to do legends, but the fact that they are only announced on death makes the whole turning on neutral to do it pretty useless.
However, by making it a proper PvPvE event, the summoners should not pay such a huge penalty for it, as there is a risk they will not be the ones who end up killing the legend. Anyone should be able to summon a legend without cost - this allows more players to get their feet wet into the legend event experience without suffering any losses.
Legends right now are hardly summoned as they are really expensive to do so, and also, does not create content for other players as they only know the legend has been summoned after it is dead.
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I agree with this, but more than removing the material cost, it should be rescaled to the new drops.
These summoning costs were fine with the old drops, when a spark of like or a Crystallized magic were common drops. With this beta, all drops have been remade, but the summoning costs have remained the same. This results in some very easily summoned legends like the queen spider, and some impossibly hard ones like the mountain troll.
IMO, I would propose something like the following:
Death Shaman: 50 goblin tongue, 10 shadow essence (instead of 10 crystallized magic)
Queen Spider: 20 spider gland (instead of 10), 30 beast blood (instead of 10)
Mountain Troll: 50 primordial dust (instead of 10), 20 primal blood (instead of the hardened troll skin)
Wisp: 50 Primordial dust, 20 mandrake roots (instead of 10 spark of life)
Earth elemental: 50 fertile dirt, 10 earth essence
Treant: 50 dark splinter, 20 callous bark
Ghoul: 25 plagued remains, 15 ghoul saliva
...And so on.
In general they must be easier, and should not use the T2 armor materials or very rare drops like hardened troll skins.
For the gems also, it would be nice if the altar provided 3 different possibilities in the UI. One combination which ends with 5 flawless gems, one which ends with 12 fine gems and one which ends with 25 chipped gems.
This would increase accessibility to this content.
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@spoletta said in Legends need to change:
For the gems also, it would be nice if the altar provided 3 different possibilities in the UI. One combination which ends with 5 flawless gems, one which ends with 12 fine gems and one which ends with 25 chipped gems.
This would increase accessibility to this content.In addition this gives the flawless and chipped gems a reason to be in the current game.
I dont think announcing legends at the start would be a good idea, because it will end that nobody will do them when they need to expect to be ganked (which will happen under guarantee with over 10 minutes time for the summon + killing attempt)
I think a middle way would be wiser such a two minutes before the legend spawns.
Give time for people who want to contest them, but not the whole map.
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I like the idea and I agree, legends should be more accessible. I do not agree with fully removing the cost, but they should be much more cheaper. Also, to compensate for the number of legend summons, we can simply increase number of required reagents in enchanting for legend drops.
@LordSkykal said in Legends need to change:
I dont think announcing legends at the start would be a good idea, because it will end that nobody will do them when they need to expect to be ganked (which will happen under guarantee with over 10 minutes time for the summon + killing attempt)
I think we can also look from a different possible scenario where gankers/PvPers summon the legend intentionally to draw players to the legend area for easy kill. So it is a mind game and not an easy kill scenario for gankers.
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If legends were announced at the start but it still took mats for it to summon - then yes, I agree nobody would do them.
If they were only announced at 2 minutes in, it's still way too low risk, because 2 minutes is way too much of a short time considering the time taken to run any where.
If legends were free and announced at the start - it wont draw the whole continent to it, because it wont just be 1 legend being summoned, multiple legends would be summoned.
Right now the game just lacks content, and having legends be free and announced at the start will get more people trying it out and fighting over it = more content to do.
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@Rife said in Legends need to change:
Right now legends are not really a feasible PvPvE event(...)
I'm curious, since you're treating legendary creatures entirely from the PvP aspect of PvPvE (in this discussion), how do you suppose that works out on Arboreus?
Shouldn't it have legendary creatures? Or should they be considered easier since there's no PvP in the PvPvE component? Should they be summoned different (which is going to have been reworked anyway, since neutral doesn't work for beatsman)?
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Would be nice if on Arboreus continents there was one impossibly powerful legend, whose summoning cost is one reagent of all the other legends on that continent.
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I believe PvE aspect of the game right now is very hard in early game for new players and extremely easy for knowledgeable players in late game. In Syndesia, it is possible to increase the challenge of legend encounters by introducing PvP elements to it, however, as Arboreus does not have any PvP, the legends(and other creatures as well) should be significantly more difficult so the content does not run out in a week. But I am curious to see what the Devs have envisioned for this.
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Legends should not mandate PvP play!
Reduce or eliminate the summon cost, but keep announcements how they are.
As population increases, more player groups will attempt Legends, and eventually, PvP groups will camp thier spawn points, causing there to be some PvP risk, but at the cost of the PvP groups time spent camping.
Some non-PvPers will get to do Legends, or need to scout an area before the attempt, and some PvPers will get to participate in PvP, but don't gift wrap the PvE groups and serve them up on a silver platter to the PvPers.
This way, Legend Altars are a PvP risk zone, but not a certainty and both groups benefit to their playstyle without unfairly penalizing either group on the mixed playstyle world.
You can also require flagging Neutral/Evil to gather from resource nodes outside your home territories to add PvP risk and help with economic distribution.
Again, not guaranteed, but requiring caution, and allowing towns to defend their resource nodes if they so choose.
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You can literally park an alternate character at a legend spot and check if there are other players there or not. This would basically mean that you have 0 incentives to camp legends since it's way too easy to check if a spot is being camped. Which would then eliminate it as a PvP risk zone.
Your post is entirely about "as population increases", while my suggestion is to help the population increase.
Considering how the population is pretty bad right now, there is no harm, instead, there is all the incentive to introduce these kind of changes to draw players back in.
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@Rife said in Legends need to change:
(...)introduce these kind of changes to draw players back in.
I'm curious, you seem to suggest that, in order to enjoy playing Fractured, 'PvP players' need to be able to fight 'PvE players', otherwise, couldn't the PvP player that enjoys fighting PvP players simply flag neutral and enjoy their playstile? Basically, playing Demon world, but on the Human planet?
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@Logain Not sure why you're bringing this "PvP" player versus "PvE" player mentality.
Legends are an end game PvPvE content. Right now it's not used at all because it's not good PvP content, nor is it good PvE content. It's not doing it's job as PvPvE content because of how it currently works, which is why I suggested the changes I did, to make it engaging and accessible PvPvE content.
PvE players can still run around and do their PvE content as blues.
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@Rife That is assuming that Legends are meant to be PvPvE content.
To many, we see Legends as endgame content, but not something that necessitates PvP participation. PvP risk, but not surety is better to the minds of most PvE players. PvP being the smallest population overall, you would please and draw more players in by making PvE content, not PvP content.
The Devs would want the game to be welcoming to the most players, which means PvE players.
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If Legends were not meant to be PvPvE content, there would be no use requiring us to turn Neutral to do it. Even blues should be able to summon legends then.
Also, I'm not sure where you're getting this misconception of PvP being the smallest population overall versus PvE players?
It seems like alot of people have this growing misconception that PvP players are a minority and that the PvE players are a much bigger fanbase, and the game should cater to these "PvE" players to increase population count.
Sorry to say, but history already proved this to be untrue. Look at New World, they removed the hardcore sandbox pvp elements in the game, and did their best to make it casual and PvE friendly. Did that draw in the "massive" PvE player base that you guys seem to keep alluding to? Well no, it didnt, the game kept losing population until it is where it is now.
You need to understand, that the "giant PvE casual" playerbase only goes after a very certain type of game - that is, one with beautiful graphics, engaging story, and a third person game. They are not going to be playing an isometric game with mediocre graphics where you have to use mouse clicks to move.
A game like Fractured which prioritizes sandbox gameplay elements over graphics and story/quests will draw in just as much, if not more sandbox pvp players than your "casual PvErs". So please, this argument of PvE players exceeding PvP players does not work on a game like Fractured.
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Fractured is exactly the kind of game that PvEers like myself enjoy, and studies have shown that PvE players far outnumber PvPers in all MMORPGs.
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As to why you have to have a Neutral with you to summon a Legend, it's because they want to encourage Neutral play on the Neutral planet, and include the RISK, not the certainty of PvP play, which is why announcements were moved to on death, not on summons.
Heavy PvP tends to drive more players away than it pulls players in. You want to build and encourage population, you make the game attractive to PvEers first, and make sure you make the graphics and mechanics they like.
I would hardly call FO's graphics mediocre even in Alpha/Beta form, when much hasn't been loaded yet.
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@GamerSeuss said in Legends need to change:
- Fractured is exactly the kind of game that PvEers like myself enjoy, and studies have shown that PvE players far outnumber PvPers in all MMORPGs.
"Studies"? Could you please link to me such studies? Because based on past examples like New world, this certainly does not seem to be the case at all.
As to why you have to have a Neutral with you to summon a Legend, it's because they want to encourage Neutral play on the Neutral planet, and include the RISK, not the certainty of PvP play, which is why announcements were moved to on death, not on summons.
There is almost no risk when the announcement is on death. In this case, they might as well allow blues to do legends as well.
In fact we can clearly see that the current legend mechanics is just not fun - players are not doing them as often as they should be, and the current mechanic does not seem to give players any sort of engagement.
Heavy PvP tends to drive more players away than it pulls players in. You want to build and encourage population, you make the game attractive to PvEers first, and make sure you make the graphics and mechanics they like.
Engaging Pvp drives more players in than it pulls players away, especially in a sandbox game like Fractured.
Also, Fractured's graphics is mediocre when you compare it to the other PvE story driven mmorpgs that PvE players actually go for.
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@Rife said in Legends need to change:
@Logain Not sure why you're bringing this "PvP" player versus "PvE" player mentality(...)
I wasn't trying to bring a PvP vs PvE player mentality, but point out a flaw in your argument.
You advertise your suggestion as being able to '(...)draw players back in(...)'.
Since announcing legends on summon doesn't change anything on the gameplay mechanics, the conclusion would be that PvP isn't lacking in mechanics, but in availability/odds of happening.
If this was the case, the PvP crowd could easily fix this by itself through flagging neutral and keeping flagged neutral, which is basically the same as playing as a Demon on Tartaros.
If there is a massive PvP crowd (as you claim), all of which are flagged neutral, you have high PvP availability/high odds to encounter a PvP fight. In which case, you don't need additional circumstances to advertise PvP, because PvP is the content anyway.
Which means that one or more of your axioms has to be wrong.
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@Logain said in Legends need to change:
Since announcing legends on summon doesn't change anything on the gameplay mechanics, the conclusion would be that PvP isn't lacking in mechanics, but in availability/odds of happening.
If this was the case, the PvP crowd could easily fix this by itself through flagging neutral and keeping flagged neutral, which is basically the same as playing as a Demon on Tartaros.
If there is a massive PvP crowd (as you claim), all of which are flagged neutral, you have high PvP availability/high odds to encounter a PvP fight. In which case, you don't need additional circumstances to advertise PvP, because PvP is the content anyway.
Which means that one or more of your axioms has to be wrong.Your arguments sadly are missing a key point. While there is a massive PvP crowd, it is illogical to think that they will all suddenly start playing at the same time. You first need to draw them in, and when they stay, more of them will start trickling in.
The problem right now is that while you can flag as neutral, you have no idea where the other neutral players are - the world itself is big, so roaming for a long time just in the hopes of finding pvp will make your game less of a choice compared to games where players know where to go to get into the action. This is why legends should be announced at start - this allows people to know where the action is, and where to go to find pvp.
So no, my axioms aren't wrong, you just have the mistaken belief that the entire PvP population would suddenly start playing at the same time.
Also players roaming around in neutral status versus fighting over the legend is two completely different things - one is just purely PvP, while the other is PvPvE, in fact, you can say that fighting over legends is akin to fighting over resources, which is something people would have more incentives to fight over, instead of just roaming around for pvp.
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@Rife said in Legends need to change:
(...)it is illogical to think that they will all suddenly start playing at the same time(...)
Didn't they all start playing at the beginning of the beta, like the thousand(s) PvE player that did?
@Rife said in Legends need to change:
(...)when they stay, more of them will start trickling in(...)
They didn't stay.
@Rife said in Legends need to change:
(...)the world itself is big, so roaming for a long time just in the hopes of finding pvp will make your game less of a choice compared to games where players know where to go to get into the action(...)
This is certainly a good argument for your cause. But it seemed that 'red players' didn't have much trouble finding 'victims' (at least I never heard that as a complaint, it was the unfair drop situation). So if PvP players can find PvE players to engage with, but they can not find PvP players to engage with, and both inhabit the same space, wouldn't that imply a difference in numbers for both populations?
@Rife said in Legends need to change:
(...)fighting over resources, which is something people would have more incentives to fight over, instead of just roaming around for pvp.
Like raids on cities? That are enabled now and would be a set time and a set place?
They should classify as everything you've advertised would draw PvPers back in.
How many people have participated on how many raids this week?
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PvP players definitely complained about not finding anyone to pvp with.
Legends could be a reason to spur some pvp, but it doesn't mean that they need to become strictly pvp events.I once proposed a double summoning system for pvp or pve, but if that takes too much dev attention, we could just have a flag on the summon. You can have it announced or not. If announced, it has increased rewards.
