Heavy armor specific skills?
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Are there any plans to introduce skills that require heavy armor to use?
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Bump for interest.
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Mages have armor restrictions for a very good reason: if they didn't, they'd stack the best armor and the best damage; or, at the very least this gives them a counter, the archer, in the games in which metal armor gives pdef and cloth gives mdef. Tanks already have the best armor, so taking cloth would be a downgrade most of the time. I don't really see a reason why there should be skills specific to metal armor, but I'd like to see more of what you have to say about this.
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@Razvan I really think skills that reflect damage, immortality for a few seconds, chain pulls(think hook shot), aoe pull ins ot setup kills. Things like these should be unique to heavy armor in order to justify being a target for enemy players and helping to setup kills.
Without a unique set of abilities I think that heavy armor does very little to standout from the rest. Taking reduced damage is not enough to consider it a different play style.
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@Nekrage
I am almost 100% sure there will be abilities exclusively for heavy armor but since there is no heavy armor yet there is no need for them now. Just wait until it's all added to the game
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@GorTavaro These replies help no one. Everyone spending time on these forums is WELL AWARE it is only alpha. This reply does not show the devs what ideas the community has. this reply does not foster new thoughts between community members. This reply does not foster community bonds.
This reply only shuts down conversations. Which is... kinda the point of forums.
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@Nekrage said in Heavy armor specific skills?:
Without a unique set of abilities I think that heavy armor does very little to standout from the rest. Taking reduced damage is not enough to consider it a different play style.
I absolutely disagree with that. Taking reduced damage paired with CC (for pvp) and aggro management (for pve) is what makes tanking possible. Frontline full of cloth armor would be wiped by the enemy archers and mdps in the first push.
I really think skills that reflect damage, immortality for a few seconds, chain pulls(think hook shot), aoe pull ins ot setup kills. Things like these should be unique to heavy armor in order to justify being a target for enemy players and helping to setup kills.
And what is the reasoning for that?
I see nothing wrong with using such skills with cloth armor: they unlock the possibility of more niche classes such as CC mages; give nukers a defensive spell which is balanced by reducing their overall DPS since they already have a limited number of skills; and part of those skills are not related to armor but to weapons. Even if initiation skills would be restricted by armor, not weapon, people would skill engage using metal armor.
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@Razvan said in Heavy armor specific skills?:
@Nekrage said in Heavy armor specific skills?:
Without a unique set of abilities I think that heavy armor does very little to standout from the rest. Taking reduced damage is not enough to consider it a different play style.
And what is the reasoning for that?
I see nothing wrong with using such skills with cloth armor: they unlock the possibility of more niche classes such as CC mages; give nukers a defensive spell which is balanced by reducing their overall DPS since they already have a limited number of skillsOooof. You think it's acceptable for a player to be a glass cannon dps wise but have a immortality skill?
Just to detail this further so we are all following along.
A player that does about (for simplicity lets use DPS) 200 DPS does so because of his heavy armor that MAY have a DPS redcution on it to counter the survivability it provides. This player can now use a 5 seconds damage immunity skill due to his use of heavy armor.
A player does 1000 DPS because of his light armor usage and heavy damage spells. This player can also use the 5 second immunity.
From a balance perspective it is MUCH easier to balance PvP and builds when you can place restrictions on abilities or adjust skills to work differently in PvP and PvE value wise(damage, stun duration, etc.).
TLDR: Having skills completely unencumbered by armor restrictions is a recipe for unbalanced, broken PvP.
Source: MMO consultant on multiple projects.
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@Nekrage said in Heavy armor specific skills?:
Oooof. You think it's acceptable for a player to be a glass cannon dps wise but have a immortality skill?
Yes, I believe that and it's not really unheard of. For example, clicky. They take skill slots (in this case knowledge points) and offer the backline a chance not to be wiped on the first engagement.
Looking back at all the games I played, I don't think there's any skill that should be only used to heavy armor. There are skills that should only be used by tanks (like ultimate defense from Lineage 2, or skills that make you invulnerable to CC or heal for the damage you get), but as I pointed out, these should only be available to tanks, not mdps or archers that decide to use heavy armor, so restricting them per weapon makes a lot more sense.
From a balance perspective it is MUCH easier to balance PvP and builds when you can place restrictions on abilities
I agree, but it's not incompatible with what I said so far.
Source: MMO consultant on multiple projects.
This is irrelevant as long as you don't come with good arguments.
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@Razvan said in Heavy armor specific skills?:
Yes, I believe that and it's not really unheard of. For example, clicky. They take skill slots (in this case knowledge points) and offer the backline a chance not to be wiped on the first engagement.
And that makes for poor balance as casters who are glass cannons have more Memory Points making it less of a detriment to take this immortality skill. Being immortal for 5 seconds which is the time it takes you to kill a player is not balanced for a glass canon build.
Being immortal for 5 seconds on a tanky build that takes you 30 seconds to kill an enemy is certainly more on the balanced side.
@Razvan said in Heavy armor specific skills?:
This is irrelevant as long as you don't come with good arguments.
Good thing I do!
Lets stick of the topic and not lob insults. Sound good?
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You find it insulting that I don't think your arguments are convincing? Ok then, this isn't really fruitful. I explained my stance above: I can't think of any skill that should be restricted to heavy armor. Tanks skills should be restricted by weapon, not by armor (so mdps or occasional archers don't have access to them).
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@Nekrage I've asked Prometheus and there are no plans for heavy armor-specific skills.
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@Specter said in Heavy armor specific skills?:
@Nekrage I've asked Prometheus and there are no plans for heavy armor-specific skills.
Now that is very interesting.
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Well, its definitely a bit surprising since there are already skills restricted to light and medium armors but i am interested in what their plan is for tank skills.
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@GorTavaro
We have a bunch of skills restricted to weapons, including this stun for maces. I can see having further aoe pull, aoe root and so on restricted to blunt weapons.
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@Razvan
Maybe you will have to wield shield to use them. It should work too, right?
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@Specter said in Heavy armor specific skills?:
@Nekrage I've asked Prometheus and there are no plans for heavy armor-specific skills.
Ouch. This has balance issues written all over it.
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@GorTavaro said in Heavy armor specific skills?:
Maybe you will have to wield shield to use them. It should work too, right?
Iirc, shields
only offer passives*. Even if they had actives, 2h tanking should still be an option. My stance on this is that as long as it's not broken and it doesn't make balancing a mess, it shouldn't be restricted. I'd rather have Archeage's system where the vast majority of combinations are weird and useless but often fun, than too many restrictions and closer to the old MMOs with few fixed classes.*hmm, I think this is outdated. If I remember correctly there was a shield active in the latest patch.
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@Razvan said in Heavy armor specific skills?:
*hmm, I think this is outdated. If I remember correctly there was a shield active in the latest patch.
Shields did nothing in the latest test beyond letting you use ONE ability. There is no passive block chance nor armor. https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/11037/shields-are-nearly-worthless?_=1592271681607
Having a shield required for "tanky" ability use in this game is unacceptable as everyone has the ability to simply tap tab and boom there's your shield, your tank ability, then back to your other weapon.
Restrictions = balance.
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Being immortal for 5 seconds which is the time it takes you to kill a player is not balanced for a glass canon build.
agreed, such skill should have way lower duration - should be kind of circuit breaker to let you teleport away / stabilise yourself with healing / disable enemy aka used rather defensively, offensively it could really be way too OP unless enemy has any invisibility / any other way to survive the 5 sec rampage; and if used defensively maybe disable offensive casting or something, then it would not be as OP
Being immortal for 5 seconds on a tanky build that takes you 30 seconds to kill an enemy is certainly more on the balanced side.
balanced - yes, necessary? - no; that would be imo contraproductive - tank does all he can to get aggro and CC, if he takes immunity spells or super shields, why would enemy attack him? Such "immunity spells" are ment for dps (Black king bar in Dota for example - never picked by tank because it would make him a tank yelling "just ignore me"). And more armour/more reduction is awesome for healers - easier to heal guys with high resistances than high health pool, so looking forward to equipping heavy armour (unless pure damage attacks are meta or too OP).
Shields did nothing in the latest test beyond letting you use ONE ability.
So far with 25 CON you get to block 100% dmg every 2 seconds (also one of enchant stats is "Cooldown" - maybe will be presented in Talents or somewhere else and hopefully will also affect CD of block), including crits and effects (stun/bleed/anything) from melee / ranged attacks; it sure does nothing against spells, but as you have physical melee / ranged covered, you can invest in elemental/magic resist; imo its rather OP than useless.
Also except Invocation and Conjuration spells you could cast all you like with a shield - healers and supports can be in front line and feel little more safe (if nothing more it saves agains backstabs out of nowhere).
but wait, there´s more - unless something got changed even the tinest dagger is supposed to have exactly same DPS as hugest polearm (weaker hits but faster - which is nice for critting more often and also negates shield), I was frequently asking what do 2h users get to compensate (2x stronger enchants on 2h? more bonus dmg from STR like in WoW? anything?) for low speed, but dont remember there were many reasons to go 2h way because armour doesnt absorb flat numbers but percents. Im really curious how dual wielding will be solved however.
But it´s just me, might be wrong ofc.Restrictions = balance.
absolutely agree
