Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary
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@Gothix said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:
Arboreus edge areas (not safe) - not sure if there is looting
I have understood that there will be full loot rules (upon death) everywhere regardless of the planet. This will just happen much more rarely in Arboreus.
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@Tuoni Yes I believe this to be correct too
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@Tuoni said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:
@Gothix said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:
Arboreus edge areas (not safe) - not sure if there is looting
I have understood that there will be full loot rules (upon death) everywhere regardless of the planet. This will just happen much more rarely in Arboreus.
Aha so basically looting isnt restricted because of Arboreus, but for all practical purposes beastmen inside safe zone will still not be able to loot because they are tagged as good, and with such tag you arent able to perform evil activities on other good players.
This means in practice no looting in safe zone, but possible looting on unsafe edge areas, beastmen looting evil players and vice versa.
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Ok I didn't read the entire thread but caught a few topics that made me take notice.
What dictates epic gear? Since everything is horizontal meaning there is no tip in the stats in total power what will mean something is epic? From what I'm understanding the total stats for everything from characters to gear is not supposed to vary enough that anything will be epic. Everything is supposed to be fairly equal...right? Are we saying stats in fire will be better than stats in cold? Will there be a stat type that rises to the top tier? I'm not seeing a tier system unless gear operates differently from characters. If it does then the whole argument that a player right out of creation is as good as a character that has been running around for years. I know that argument has been beat to death and I don't want to begin it again lol.
The question on breaking into player housing is something I'm strongly against. We do not live in the game world and can not protect our belongings 24/7. Players need some safe place to store stuff from others. If my house isn't safe then I see no reason to ever have a house. A house in mmos has always been a storage shed for me.
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@Farlander I don't think they have ever stated that gear progression will be horizontal. Imo this would be just a very boring game as character progression is the very core of the MMO genre. Yes, the character progression is horizontal: the longer you play the more skills and abilities you unlock: this makes you explore a lot of different skill setups along the way. And by saying that "a player right out of creation is as good as a character that has been running around for years" devs really mean that the raw stats of these characters will be comparable. You can always trade your new character a +10 ultra godbane greatsword of fire and it will be as good as if you gave to your oldest character. At least that's how I interpreted the dev posts.
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@Razvan said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:
@Tuoni
Add the fact that being in a huge alliance in Albion and playing inside your territory is basically safer than being guildless in RZ. That's the effect of monopoly and it will also happen here, but unlike Albion where you could go with an expensive set for weeks, here items get destroyed with durability and you'll still have to change quite often.That is true. I have played in big alliance during Beta 2 and it was hard to find open world PvP action even we wanted because most of the black zones were friendly zones. Okay I have to admit the map was also a little bit too big but still. Eventually we left from that alliance and only because we wanted more PvP action. Therefore, I still remember how safe that was and there was no fear of death at all.
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@humerus said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:
(...) I don't think they have ever stated that gear progression will be horizontal(...)
Just two examples where Prometheus actually mentions exactly that. There's more, but I thought two should be enough to convince people. If you're using the search function, the keyword gear, filtered by Prometheus is rather enlightening.
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@Logain This is actually quite frightening ngl. Horizontal gear seems like an all around terrible design decision. If all gear is pretty equal in it's rarity and median effectiveness then there are no endgame goals and endgame PvM content would just rely on the quantity of the dropped items. I might be overlooking something but from what I can tell such game would not be very fun at all.
![😕](https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/plugins/nodebb-plugin-emoji/emoji/android/1f615.png?v=9peh192ml94 ":\")
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@humerus I think this is going to be a different kind of mmo where there is no finish line in the creation progress of your characters. If that is so the game will need to center on regular events to hold players' attention. I believe this because every game I have played my interest was held only until I got to the end content. However, if the game held regular events such as UO and SWTOR did, then I stuck around for the social aspect and just had fun with my team mates.
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@Farlander I don't know how to feel about Dynamight not being open enough about such a crucial design detail. I guess we just have to wait and see what comes out of it. I really hope they scratch this or that gear progression won't be as extremly flat as they make it seem.
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@humerus said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:
@Logain This is actually quite frightening ngl. Horizontal gear seems like an all around terrible design decision. If all gear is pretty equal in it's rarity and median effectiveness then there are no endgame goals and endgame PvM content would just rely on the quantity of the dropped items. I might be overlooking something but from what I can tell such game would not be very fun at all.
With this kind of system there is high risk that people will bore fast. My biggest concerns relates to the gear, crafting, trading and economics. All these factors are related to each other because if everyone can easily craft the best gear, that removes the need of trade, which effects to the markets. On top of that, if crafting will be an underwhelming activity and gearing will not offer much for character progression, those will have negative impact to keep players interested.
Yes I understand if the focus is in horizontal progression and how it keeps power gap between player close to each other, however, this also removes a lot from character progression and serious goals. Even the progression would concentrate in horizontal direction that does not need to mean zero vertical progression. In my opinion it is important to have vertical progression as well but the power gaps can be calm even there would be several tiers.
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@Tuoni Yeah if the game design relises solely on the progression being as flat as possible this defeats the very purpose of the MMO ganre. MMOs have never too complicated gameplay wise and in order for a game with a level playing field to be fun and lasting there needs to be something to keep players from leaving: in our case it would be either PvM or PvP. Becasue if everyone's acct the same anyone can craft anything and suddenly skillers no longer exist. If all items are basically equal in value neither PvM nor PvP have any meaning and are fulfilling in any way besides experiencing them. And all that's left is some weird openworld MOBA with a complex social system.
Of course I am going to an extreme here and I really doubt that this could end up actually happening but given the fact that we don't actually know much about the game in the future and how these post from Jacopo may or may not be still up to date with the Dynamight game vision, we can only hope that this doesn't end up in a disaster. ':(
Need to remember to ask about just how horizontal the game progression is going to be the next time around a qna is announced.
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@humerus said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:
(...)I don't know how to feel about Dynamight not being open enough about such a crucial design detail(...)
It's on their front page, as description of how the game is going to be designed.
I'm not sure they could be ANY more open about it? ('Why is Fractured unique? (...)Jump right into the fray from day one. Defeat your enemies through your own skill and cleverness, not equipment or level(...)').@humerus said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:
(...)If all gear is pretty equal in it's rarity(...)
That's only true globally, but you have to remember that you can not act, nor trade globally. What is 'rare' to the Demon on their planet is rather abundant to the Beastman, but what is very common for the Demon can be hardly (if at all) found by the Beastman on their own planets. So, if a Beastman wants that (as an example...) firesword, there would be expansive trade with the brave adventurer who dared travel to the other planet, or the Beastman would have to venture there all by themselves. Which is where what you'd normally have as 'progress' come into play. Exploration. Instead of going to 'level 76 gated territory and finding level 76 loot, you decide to explore a new territory which (possibly) is a test to your current set of equipment, because your equipment wasn't made to be used under the circumstances there.
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If weapons and armors turn out to be flat, bland and easy to obtain, would that make full loot system also really underwhelming? If most of the items you loot from the other players are worthless basic stuff, how that can feel rewarding?
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Progression is still progression, regardless of what type it is, older character will always be more versatile / efficient than fresh character.
There isn't any sense in claiming otherwise.
The point of horizontal progression, though, is that power gap between old character and fresh character will not be as large as it would be in vertically progressed game.
No levels, equal base character stats, and limited skill slots in skill bar, will still give a full fresh character, chance against old character, because playing skill will play a significant role here.
In vertically progressed MMO, fresh character would not even have a chance regardless of playing skill.
Of course, we are talking about fresh characters here, not fresh players. Fresh players will obviously still have much to learn, so from that fact alone, they will be behind old players, that already learned many tricks.
However, if old, experienced player, creates a fresh alt, he may very well beat many other players (that are using progressed avatars) with his own freshly made alt, purely through his playing skills, and experience.
The above would not be possible in vertically progressed MMO.
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@Logain I do not believe that the prices would differ much on the "opposite ends" so to speak. Bacuase item A is common on Arb and can't be found on Tar, for example, there is minimal risk in transporting it from Arb to Tar: you wouldn't loose much if you died: after all the supply is too big. This would make a lot of people looking for quick buck run it to every place imaginable just to merch off of the price margin. And if too many people are doing that consistently, the margin will collapse really quickly basically making the item price on Tar just a little higher than on Arb. I just don't see how this would work out unfortunately.
Of course a skill based game sounds good and all that but imho it's not a MOBA battle arena for it to be a universally level playing field. (I am a little oversimplifying and implying that the player skill level also takes into consideration the gear and prep management, I don't think that it's unreasonable here)
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@Tuoni @Gothix Correct, Beastmen who die on Arboreus will drop their items just like anyone else, but since Beastmen can't loot each other anywhere on Arboreus, it'll be easier for Beastmen players to retrieve their items.
@Farlander @humerus @Logain Endgame on Syndesia and Tartaros will revolve largely around politics, conquests, city building, etc. Arboreus will have the largest amount of PvE events to compensate for the lack of PvP there. If during testing it becomes clear that endgame is lacking, the devs will certainly address it.
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@humerus said in Looting? Pickpocketing? Or Lock picking & Burglary:
(...)minimal risk in transporting it from Arb to Tar(...)
You assume that you can simply travel from one to the other at a whim any time of the day. That's not the case though, since we were told traveling from one planet to another requires plenty of effort and resources (likely a group effort). You know, like back in the days when you had to take a long, dangerous journey to get goods from here to there, the guilds transporting these goods made a fortune.
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@Logain No I was talking precicely about that but I get what you're saying. Let's say I'm transporting a bunch of our hypothetical items from Arb to Tar and get PKed and robbed half way through. This still means that the X amount of items I moved still got a little closer to my original destination where the item is extremely rare. The brigands that took my goods will most likely sell them off at the closest town, and they will get picked up by someone else willing to run them for profit. It will eventually get to it's original destination. And while in, say, Albion it's okay because there are a ton of different items which all have their own dynamic: no two items are exactly alike. On the other hand here the economy as I understand it will not be too diverse and because there is a constant supply of this item because we are considering it to be common or Arb, the stream of merchers will be steady enough that very soon it will be of pretty medium rarity at the final destination on Tar and therefore not too overpriced.
P.S: here I am considering that travel costs are included in the supply price for simplicity's sake and i didn't really mean that the whole errand would be safe per se, what I'm saying is that one wouldn't loose much in case of failure, at least if close to the supply point.
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To be fair I'm not really sure what to think of this anymore, this is all too hypothetical and based on assumptions and educated guesses, there's really no point in continuing to argue over something that we really don't know much about: only time will tell.
By the way Specter dropped some interesting info on this topic in the other thread, screenshot below.
