Pinatas, catatonia, and Montgomery Scott (or what matters the most to me in MMOs)
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A given collective of players should be able to encode their cultural rules upon the land(s) they manage, and be able to do so in such in a way that assures technology handle the heavy lifting.
Providing the options of different models is the only requisite. How they are used will be the emergent aspect.
Maybe players prefer to follow real world examples, maybe they don't... but it's a lot easier to do any of it if the game itself provides a means of formalizing such things.
I like Fractured's take on planetary cultures; I'm saying with the right systems in place, you wouldn't need separate planets.
Still, I acknowledge it's all new and risky for the industry - generally speaking, no one wants to be the first to try, even as first to market is a demonstrated advantage in the industry.
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A post in another topic I saw awhile back pointed me to a video about Ultima Online (the OG), and a little known feature that they scrapped because of how quickly players killed mobs. They implemented a virtual ecology, where the "herbivores" are plants, and the carnivores ate them, and so on. This doesn't necessarily answer all of your concerns, but it would give the mobs life instead of mindless wandering.
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@Ekadzati, @TheRippyOne - you had a good discussion going, have you considered making a thread about wars and social contracts to see how the rest of the fanbase feels? I feel it would make for a good discussion, but I also feel people interested in social side of PvP are not going to see it in a thread about mobs...
@zidroc said in Pinatas, catatonia, and Montgomery Scott (or what matters the most to me in MMOs):
A post in another topic I saw awhile back pointed me to a video about Ultima Online (the OG), and a little known feature that they scrapped because of how quickly players killed mobs. They implemented a virtual ecology, where the "herbivores" are plants, and the carnivores ate them, and so on. This doesn't necessarily answer all of your concerns, but it would give the mobs life instead of mindless wandering.
Here's the video in question: (I happened to watch it in last couple of months).
Modelling ecology is a tricky proposition, since ecology seems like the kind of system that requires a lot of forethought and work to become noticeable, let alone enjoyable to interact with.
It's one thing where virtual ecology makes a player go like
"Crikey, those noobs overfarmed rabbits and deers in Acetonia - again - and now I can't farm Bear Asses until next week."
and it's another where it makes a player go like
"Crikey, by carefully manipulating populations of different wildlife species, I've triggered an exodus of bears that will follow a a juicy, juicy gradient of prey population densities straight to xXxTownville69xXx's doormat, which will disrupt their wild honey production, allowing me to unload all my reserves for a considerable profit."...but then again, even rudimentary modelling ecology leads to mob in-fighting, and OOOHH YES, mob in-fighting can be fun. Firefall beta didn't have a full-blown ecology, but it had mob factions. I liked to herd swarms of Hissers onto Brontodons, and my favourite memory is of a (brief) five-sided players-Raiders-Chosen-Brontodons-wildlife battle that I accidentally started.
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@ekadzati said in Pinatas, catatonia, and Montgomery Scott (or what matters the most to me in MMOs):
A given collective of players should be able to encode their cultural rules upon the land(s) they manage, and be able to do so in such in a way that assures technology handle the heavy lifting.
Providing the options of different models is the only requisite. How they are used will be the emergent aspect.
Maybe players prefer to follow real world examples, maybe they don't... but it's a lot easier to do any of it if the game itself provides a means of formalizing such things.
I like Fractured's take on planetary cultures; I'm saying with the right systems in place, you wouldn't need separate planets.
So, you'd like to see, say (just for example), a guild alliance structure available to demons on Tartaros? Something that would penalize breaking the alliance or attacking allies (or maybe prevent attacks on allies entirely).
(From a lore perspective, could be a blood oath/magic thing that not even demons ignore lightly.)
@dragomok said in Pinatas, catatonia, and Montgomery Scott (or what matters the most to me in MMOs):
...but then again, even rudimentary modelling ecology leads to mob in-fighting, and OOOHH YES, mob in-fighting can be fun. Firefall beta didn't have a full-blown ecology, but it had mob factions. I liked to herd swarms of Hissers onto Brontodons, and my favourite memory is of a (brief) five-sided players-Raiders-Chosen-Brontodons-wildlife battle that I accidentally started.
That sounds cool.
I'd love to see more ecological systems implemented!
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@roccandil said in Pinatas, catatonia, and Montgomery Scott (or what matters the most to me in MMOs):
@ekadzati said in Pinatas, catatonia, and Montgomery Scott (or what matters the most to me in MMOs):
A given collective of players should be able to encode their cultural rules upon the land(s) they manage, and be able to do so in such in a way that assures technology handle the heavy lifting.
Providing the options of different models is the only requisite. How they are used will be the emergent aspect.
Maybe players prefer to follow real world examples, maybe they don't... but it's a lot easier to do any of it if the game itself provides a means of formalizing such things.
I like Fractured's take on planetary cultures; I'm saying with the right systems in place, you wouldn't need separate planets.
So, you'd like to see, say (just for example), a guild alliance structure available to demons on Tartaros? Something that would penalize breaking the alliance or attacking allies (or maybe prevent attacks on allies entirely).
(From a lore perspective, could be a blood oath/magic thing that not even demons ignore lightly.)
@dragomok said in Pinatas, catatonia, and Montgomery Scott (or what matters the most to me in MMOs):
...but then again, even rudimentary modelling ecology leads to mob in-fighting, and OOOHH YES, mob in-fighting can be fun. Firefall beta didn't have a full-blown ecology, but it had mob factions. I liked to herd swarms of Hissers onto Brontodons, and my favourite memory is of a (brief) five-sided players-Raiders-Chosen-Brontodons-wildlife battle that I accidentally started.
That sounds cool.
I'd love to see more ecological systems implemented!Yes to both, actually. Any "agreement" that is possible between players should be able to be formalized (there will always be compelling reasons NOT to do so, but one's reputation over time somewhat implies there is more than anecdotal and highly biased history to refer to... even as there will always be argument around "whose perspective is accurate/correct/factual" - there will be more depth when there is more information and access TO it for players.)
Players never consider the health of the surrounding systems. I think they should. I'd like to, personally, and I think it would give mobs as well as players reasons to regularly check their premise and adjust as needed (i.e., rather than sink into rote behaviors, min-maxing/theorycraft, and "gaming the system").
Anyway, I am about to be on the road a bit, so likely will be sparse on replies unless insomnia visits again. Thanks for the discussion.... very interesting and enjoyable!
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@ekadzati said in Pinatas, catatonia, and Montgomery Scott (or what matters the most to me in MMOs):
Anyway, I am about to be on the road a bit, so likely will be sparse on replies unless insomnia visits again. Thanks for the discussion.... very interesting and enjoyable!
Ya, thanks!
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@dragomok One of the most frustrating things is, for instance, in Destiny 2 you'll come up on a mob battle going on, and you engage one side to begin the slaughter, but instead of their fight continuing they ALL start shooting at you, completely disregarding each other. Your description of firefall sounds ridiculously fun to manipulate.
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@ekadzati You might enjoy Wakfu, then - most areas have various resources, and an ideal level for these resources - "Wakfu" is the in-universe term for "energy in balance" - maintaining Wakfu gives a character certain benefits, while driving nature out of balance and "going to the dark-side" has a similar enhancement in the other direction - so, if maintaining a particular coast's balance improves your water defense, breaking it might enhance your fire offense, and so on (not an actual example from the game, but it's an easy to grasp example). Besides the obvious - over-harvest plants mean no more plants, for example - it could also caused monster mobs to spawn less often, and to act more aggressively, because they are starving. Place too many trees could have an opposite effect - too many mobs, and mobs that ran away, or refused to fight
