hint for logout
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@grofire said in hint for logout:
@jetah have you played a game with logout timer? I did and I tell you 1 min is more then enough, it's never feel safe.
If looting someone taking 5 min that a bad gameplay design. It should take 5s so you can keep fighting.games are now too easy and hold your hand too much. UO had the ability to put bags in bags to keep stuff safe or to organize them. if looting takes 5s then there's a problem.
@grofire said in hint for logout:
@gothix so you gonna wait 15 min looking on your char, doing nothing, nice game experience
yes, many games with pvp have a time where your client is at character select or it closed, and your character is still in the game world. This happens in Eve Online and WoW to name a few examples. a 15 minute timer doesn't mean you have to sit there waiting the 15 minutes to close the game or swap characters. it's the amount of time the model stays in the game world. i thought you knew although i could have explained it a little better.
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@jetah said in hint for logout:
yes, many games with pvp have a time where your client is at character select or it closed, and your character is still in the game world. This happens in Eve Online and WoW to name a few examples. a 15 minute timer doesn't mean you have to sit there waiting the 15 minutes to close the game or swap characters. it's the amount of time the model stays in the game world. i thought you knew although i could have explained it a little better.
so you saying that every time you logout, your char will stay in the wold, and you will not be able even to see if someone attack you and run or fight ??
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@grofire Yes, that is the industry standard for fair PvP, without pulling plugs or alt-f4ing for advantages :). EVE Online is one of the most successful sandbox MMOs in history, and I hope Fractured will be able to achieve similar levels of success! If you want to log out safely, do it in safe areas (in EVE this was a docked ship in a safe zone) or you can take a small risk and log out when nobody is around. If you log out in the middle of a war zone and die, that is 100% your fault.
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@basileus as i said it already 1 min is more the enough, but i will not going to argue any more, i will just wait for the dev to show what they think.
if the timer will be more then 1 min i will be disappoint.
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@grofire Have a read on how the EVE online system works: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203208932-Weapon-and-Logoff-Timers
I will personally be disappointed if you can hit someone, then have a tiny 1 minute logoff timer. Will open a lot of room for abuse by stealth classes (and I personally plan as playing as a demon). IMO, it should even be a 1 minute timer to enter the safezone (resets if you attack someone again), in order to prevent gankers from going out of a safezone, killing someone, immediately going back into the safe zone, heal up, repeat etc.
At any rate, when in doubt, one should follow successful methods, and EVE Online is the gold standard for sandbox MMOs at present!
EDIT: And of course, if you are under attack and log off, the timer should reset every time you are hit, just like EVE Online, until you are dead or your attack stops attacking you and the timer runs out.
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@basileus i never played EVE but i played AO, and there you are dead in less then 10s if you will not fight back, so 1 min is more then enough, how long EVE fight take ? is it more then 10s if one will not defend himself ? if its more then 10s you know why it take so much time to logout... in a fast battle like in AO more then 1 min is stupid!
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@grofire TTK in EVE varies heavily, you can kill a top tier ship in seconds if you bring enough people and catch them with their pants down, or you could shoot a mid tier ship with a beginner ship solo and you will never kill it as the regen will outstrip your damage.
As for AO, it is not a good model to follow, considering it is a dead game now. We do not know how long it takes to kill people in fractured, nor do we know how easy/hard it is to look through someone's inventory and take the items we want.
I will say this however: say you die, and your body lingers on the ground for 1 minute (you can imagine if log off timers were 1 minute, and respawn time was greater than 1 minute, people would just log off on death asap; if respawn time was less than 1 minute, that's even worse for this scenario). Imagine a 100 vs 100 fight. You would have people trying to loot people as you kill them instead of focusing on the fight! This would cause chaos in a coordinated fight. Making people choose between looting quickly before the body magically disappears or fighting properly is just bad game design. In games like this, it would be best for everyone to be 100% focused on the fight and winning it, and then afterwards focusing on the loot. A 15 minute logoff timer ensures that you will have a chance to loot something after you 100% win a fight, and not reward those bad players who would prefer to loot something in mid fight rather than ensure that the fight is won instead.
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@basileus said in hint for logout:
@grofire TTK in EVE varies heavily, you can kill a top tier ship in seconds if you bring enough people and catch them with their pants down, or you could shoot a mid tier ship with a beginner ship solo and you will never kill it as the regen will outstrip your damage.
you see, in AO 1v1 will take less then 10s, 1v5 will take less then 1s so its stupid to put like EVE (im guessing fractured will be more like AO then EVE).
As for AO, it is not a good model to follow, considering it is a dead game now. We do not know how long it takes to kill people in fractured, nor do we know how easy/hard it is to look through someone's inventory and take the items we want.
I will say this however: say you die, and your body lingers on the ground for 1 minute (you can imagine if log off timers were 1 minute, and respawn time was greater than 1 minute, people would just log off on death asap; if respawn time was less than 1 minute, that's even worse for this scenario). Imagine a 100 vs 100 fight. You would have people trying to loot people as you kill them instead of focusing on the fight! This would cause chaos in a coordinated fight. Making people choose between looting quickly before the body magically disappears or fighting properly is just bad game design. In games like this, it would be best for everyone to be 100% focused on the fight and winning it, and then afterwards focusing on the loot. A 15 minute logoff timer ensures that you will have a chance to loot something after you 100% win a fight, and not reward those bad players who would prefer to loot something in mid fight rather than ensure that the fight is won instead.
you didn't understand it good, only alive people have timer! when you die, your body will stay on the ground for 1H doesn't matter if you logout or not, this is how it goes in AO.
so in your 100v100 people can kill whatever they want, the body will stay on the ground for 1H but the one died will never get his item back (only if he run back to the place he died and pick it up from his body).
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The bodies staying around is a good idea, but as we still do not know how exactly the looting system works (do you have to actively search the enemy player's inventory etc), or the TTK, it is too early to determine the length of the log off timer. It also doesn't solve the stealth player issue could exist (sit in stealth, gank someone, stealth, alt-f4 before people find you). I would err on the side of a long log off timer, as this is always fair; plus encouraging people to log of in safe zones is always a good thing. A short log off timer is game destroying (see games like DayZ, where people log off all the time to try and avoid dying, and often succeed), and a long log off timer is pretty much always fine (see EVE Online). I would hope that the game devs would not sacrifice fair PvP at the altar of convenience for those people who do not plan ahead and want to log off in a dangerous zone.
Besides, in a looting game like this one, people should get used to the idea that all their gear and items are just consumables, you will lose it all eventually except for your knowledge, and any recipes you've learned for crafting (unless you play permanently in safe zones as a beast of course, in which case that is part of the core gameplay and I consider it perfectly fine. Even then however, there is a tiny chance that you could be looted by a gang of demons who finds you and kills you in the safe zone before the debuff kills them).
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@basileus i see only downsides to the long timer, people that will not go out to the world to see what there is out there. less people in the world is less PVP and activity.
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@grofire I played AO and I don't agree. The difference between AO and Fractured is the survival gameplay in Fractured. This means what you can carry will be very limited. So you probably can not loot gear from multiple enemies like in AO. Maybe gear from 1 enemy, maybe even less...
So if you kill an enemie in Fractured you have to decide what you take. His food, because you still have a long journey ahead? His medicine or clothes to protect yourself better from the weather? Or some pieces of his shiny armor to sell for profit? What will you do???
I'm not saying it should be 15 minutes or more so I can find afk ppl. I'm saying it should be 15 minutes or more so ppl can't Ctrl+Alt+F4 to turn of their client upon death. Give ppl the time to enjoy the decision making of the survival machenics in Fractured. It should be fun
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@grofire Also why would people not go out then? You just plan to end your journey somewhere safe. If not, log out in the middle and come back, you might be dead, you might not, but who cares? In this game we're looking for knowledge and to experience the gameplay; gear is all supposed to be situational (and I'm betting easily replaceable). We'll probably be posting general guides for newbies in the future with the EVE mantra of "Don't take out what you cannot afford to lose." There are thousands of hand holding games out there, let this have our core niche audience who don't care if we lose gear or not. Better that than the combat logging plague that has infected every single game where the log off timers aren't long enough.
I would be fine with this one compromise. If you have not attacked a player or NPC in the last 30 minutes or have not taken damage from any of the above, you may have a log off timer of one minute. If you have attacked an NPC or have been attacked by an NPC, your log off timer is 5 minutes (will be reset if you are attacked by an NPC during this timer, or if you attack an NPC). If you have attacked a player within the last 30 minutes or have been attacked by a player within the same timeframe, your logoff timer will then be 15 minutes, and will be reset if you are damaged by any source or if you do any damage to a player again. This will prevent stealth, kill, loot, stealth, log off antics that are so common in other games where the timers are short. (Will also prevent people from escaping death by logging off).
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@benseine read what we already wrote.
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Hum, 15min seems like quite a long time.
I agree with people when they say it could be adaptative with various parameters:- If there are other players around
- where you log out (safe zone or not, kind of planet)
- if being attacked, increase log out time
In term of Gameplay, killing an AFK isn't really a great thing, you don't have difficulties, it's sounds like an easy kill. So not really enjoyful, and for the player you killed, it's frustrating because he could not defend himself.
I'm not really encouraging long time log out because of thoses reasons. But 5 min seems to be fair. with more time if attacked.
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@rotul The idea is that you are not going to be killing any AFKs, it is to prevent people from escaping a scenario where they will almost certainly die by using ALT-F4. If you play games like DayZ, or maybe Elite Dangerous, you will know that combat logging in those games are serious issues (in Elite Dangerous, players even ALT-F4 in PvE!) that players use to exploit the game and not die. Bottom line, if you log out somewhere unsafe, then dying is 100% your fault (if you do die, the vast majority of times you probably won't if the game is large enough, and it looks pretty large to me from the demos shown). If you log off somewhere safe (i.e inside your own house, in an inn, whatever the safe zones are), then you have instant log out. It encourages people to plan out their trips and end it in safe spaces, or else risk dying by logging out in the middle of nowhere (think of it as the same as setting up camp in the middle of nowhere, monsters might kill you while you sleep, etc).
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Log out should be:
- inside cities: instant.
- oustide cities: 1min channeling that can be interrupted.
- auto-logout: 30mins after beeing AFK (afk should start after 5-10 mins of inactivity).
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@finland ya i think so too.
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@grofire said in hint for logout:
@gothix so you gonna wait 15 min looking on your char, doing nothing, nice game experience
No. You can actually return to city, then log out instant, as you are supposed to.
It also make sense the adventurers seek safe place to sleep, and not get eaten by the bear sleeping in the middle of the forest. And if you chose to sleep in the middle of the forest then the risk is on you.
So, again, plan to return to city, then log out and go do whatever you want in RL.
Or leave you char hidden in some bushes, click log out (or ALT+F4, knowing your char will still stay online for a while on server) and leave, and take your chances that no one hostile will pass by and attack you.Your choice.
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@gothix sound like shit gameplay.
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@grofire you don't like survival games?
