Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing
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Hi, fellow gamer and MMO enthustiast!
Here come the largest balancing patch since our Early Access launch, targeted at both PvE and PvP. This patch wasn't planned, but it was sorely needed as we saw gold and divine reward generation get out of control in the end game, with insane amounts of gold, orbs and recipes being generated every day. This had no damage on the economy yet since it's been going on for a few days only, but would have a major impact in the long run. Moreover, complaints about PvP balancing were still widespread, so we needed to address those as well.
Is this all? Of course not, a lot more will be live in the upcoming patch Endgame Changer, the first major release of the game! For now however, this should shake the meta and adjust the economy. Because of this, we've reset the respec timer for all characters and respecs now have a cooldown of 1 day instead of 1 week!
This is all for now. Stay tuned for the engame changer!
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"Mage Armor physical armor bonus lowered from 20 x WIS to [8-12] x WIS, but now stacks with physical armor from other sources."
This change, plus the evasion nerf in the last patch, continues to make heavy armor even worse for tanking when compared to several other armors - In defenses and especially for damage. (I assume that the change to Encumbrance that reduces damage is now is linear between -0 to -30% from 0 to 100 encumbrance.)
*In the second and third image, I forgot to include the Mage Armor/Wisdom numbers. They are unchanged from the first image.
Armor values with Mage Armor and no special materials (at the shown values of WIS/Proficiency):
Armor Values with Mage Armor and physical defensive materials (Mammoth Cloth, Mountain Dragon Leather, or Blood Iron - sorry Hide):
Armor Values with Mage Armor and physical defensive materials only for Leather/Cloth and Mithril for Chain/Plate:
This comparison obviously does not include the bonus from different armor sets.
It does not include the 7.5% crit from Assassin and the 10% mana cost reduction from Scholar.
It does not include other material options for say Leather that would keep better defenses than the heavy armor options, but give, say, 10% crit chance.
This ignores the "power loss" from losing access to all spells while wearing Heavy armor.
Armor Mastery was ignored because I already made 3 charts while it will lower the penalties of Leather up to Plate, it doesn't change the reality that the best tanking sets are not Heavy/Plate and not even Medium/Chain.
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I don't feel that great about just spending a ton of time crafting my first Slayer set lol. Looks like the worst one to use now. The overall nerf to greataxe feels bad too. I guess maybe if you were a max tier player it was OP, but it didn't feel that way for a level 30 who just started getting into Jotuns. Overall, wearing plate just seems bad, cloth/leather users have a huge variety of skills to use in comparison.
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TLDR to my above post: If your goal is to mitigate the most damage, Heavy armor is not the best solution or even the second best. It might be third if you ignore the penalties of using it over other options.
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@MoreCoffee said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
I don't feel that great about just spending a ton of time crafting my first Slayer set lol. Looks like the worst one to use now. The overall nerf to greataxe feels bad too. I guess maybe if you were a max tier player it was OP, but it didn't feel that way for a level 30 who just started getting into Jotuns. Overall, wearing plate just seems bad, cloth/leather users have a huge variety of skills to use in comparison.
Hi Coffee, have you tried it out in practice or are you just just going on a hunch? You lost some damage but gained faster cooldowns (=> more spell => more damage). Overall the difference should be minimal in PvE. If you want to reduce it further, pick the armor and make you armor in Mithril, or at least make sure it's not in a material that increases encumbrance
@Yalah said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
TLDR to my above post: If your goal is to mitigate the most damage, Heavy armor is not the best solution or even the second best. It might be third if you ignore the penalties of using it over other options.
With an enchanted Knight armor and the armor talents (which work as percentages, besides the first one, so they are stronger on heavy armor) you can max out all physical resistances (2000/2000 each). That's an 80% damage reduction, add a shield and you're able to sustain insane amounts of damage. You don't even need an Excellent +4 armor - Good/Great and +2/+3 is enough.
How does light armor + mage armor even remotely compare to that?
I think your problem is just that you didn't consider quality, enchanting and the talents
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@Prometheus said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
@MoreCoffee said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
I don't feel that great about just spending a ton of time crafting my first Slayer set lol. Looks like the worst one to use now. The overall nerf to greataxe feels bad too. I guess maybe if you were a max tier player it was OP, but it didn't feel that way for a level 30 who just started getting into Jotuns. Overall, wearing plate just seems bad, cloth/leather users have a huge variety of skills to use in comparison.
Hi Coffee, have you tried it out in practice or are you just just going on a hunch? You lost some damage but gained faster cooldowns (=> more spell => more damage). Overall the difference should be minimal in PvE. If you want to reduce it further, pick the armor and make you armor in Mithril, or at least make sure it's not in a material that increases encumbrance
@Yalah said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
TLDR to my above post: If your goal is to mitigate the most damage, Heavy armor is not the best solution or even the second best. It might be third if you ignore the penalties of using it over other options.
With an enchanted Knight armor and the armor talents (which work as percentages, besides the first one, so they are stronger on heavy armor) you can max out all physical resistances (2000/2000 each). That's an 80% damage reduction, add a shield and you're able to sustain insane amounts of damage. You don't even need an Excellent +4 armor - Good/Great and +2/+3 is enough.
How does light armor + mage armor even remotely compare to that?
I think your problem is just that you didn't consider quality, enchanting and the talents Yea just going on what I've read above and from the patch notes, I will have to test it out and see. I appreciate the response
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(Set / Total Physical Defenses / Total Magic Defenses / Total Defenses)
Leather set + Mountain Dragon Leather (No Mage Armor) 20/16 Encumbrance:
Leather / 2050 / 2200 / 4250
Ranger / 2550 / 2850 / 5400
Rogue / 2350 / 3200 / 5550Leather set + Mountain Dragon Leather (Mage Armor 20 wis, 0 Prof) 20/16 Encumbrance:
Leather / 2530 / 2360 / 4890
Ranger / 3030 / 3010 / 6040
Rogue / 2990 / 3360 / 6350Plate set base 80/64 Encumbrance:
Full Plate / 2100 / 1800 / 3900
Knight / 3000 / 2400 / 5400
Slayer / 2100 / 1200 / 3300Plate set Blood Iron 80/64 Encumbrance:
Full Plate / 2700 / 1800 / 4500
Knight / 3600 / 2400 / 6000
Slayer / 2700 / 1200 / 3900Plate set with Mithril 64/52 Encumbrance:
Full Plate / 2100 / 3000 / 5100
Knight / 3000 / 3600 / 6600
Slayer / 2100 / 2400 / 4500Best case scenario for Plate/heavy, you have slightly better defenses than what Rogue armor can give you. Leather needs to use one skill slot and mana reservation, while Heavy/Plate has 32 more encumbrance than them. (-7.2% Attack Speed, -7.2% Movement Speed, -10.8% damage, -72% chance to dodge).
Additionally, Mage Armor numbers could be increased by (420 / 140 / 560) by maxing WIS and Proficiency.
Heavy/Plate not the best tanking gear. The fact that these numbers are even close says there is a big problem.
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Pelo visto estão fazendo jogo para magos, eu tinha uma build que usava critico da espada que agora ta uma porcaria, só uma skill de estada de duas mãos da critico, o dano do machado tambem nerfado, não tem berserker no jogo? acho que a chance de critico que deveria impactar se da critico ou não e não as skills, o player escolhe fazer uma build com pericia ele perde pontos em outras coisas, para dar critico, uma build de critico que nenhuma skill da critico quem vai jogar de espada???
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para mim este pach foi bem mal balanceado
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@Yalah Dude, I love your numbers and trust them more than anything else. That chart is amazing. It also makes me very sad as a slayer/great axe user. Looks like I'm switching styles altogether.
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@Prometheus In Discord you said, "A wide nerf is a hard decision to make, but it's the right one."
And coming from over 30 years of gaming, I can tell you, that has never been a good option, ever. I have played more MMO's than I can count and nerfing so hard is never a good option for the customer base. I won't even go into the "neutral" buffs of divines, that's for another topic.
More people solo in this game than they do group. It's a fact, I see it everywhere I am playing. At most, you will see a duo. Sometimes 3. It's rare that large groups are out farming. So, we kill the solo farmers, the silent majority that play the game? I just don't see the logic. Who cares if people are doing "well"? It's harder for people starting out until they learn a good playstyle, but now, a lot of people go back to the drawing board to see what the next meta is and that's obviously intended. But what then, nerf that too? If ogres were never meant to be solo'd, that should have been from day one. Ogres have always been solo'able. So, if that is just stripped from people, what are they to do now? Luckily, I can get my GF to play with me and I "was" able to tank while she killed stuff. Who knows now.
I know you all are doing your best, but for a moment, think about what happens when you take some of the fun out of the game for people who enjoy going into the woods and hitting chest camps, or killing some ogres, etc. I haven't been in the game, just read what @Yalah had posted and, more than anyone, that guy knows what he's doing.
Love you guys, this is the most dedicated I've ever been about a game, but hold off the nerf bat. Take another look and step back. Instead of nerf, buff.
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With an enchanted Knight armor and the armor talents (which work as percentages, besides the first one, so they are stronger on heavy armor) you can max out all physical resistances (2000/2000 each). That's an 80% damage reduction, add a shield and you're able to sustain insane amounts of damage. You don't even need an Excellent +4 armor - Good/Great and +2/+3 is enough.
How does light armor + mage armor even remotely compare to that?
I think your problem is just that you didn't consider quality, enchanting and the talents I think the problem is that you picked the literal worst comparison and threw out everything else. That's kinda disingenuous.
I think you and others don't talk about is how resistances scale, the punishments from encumbrance, or that evasion is a 100% mitigation.
The difference between 1500 and 2000 resistances is 5% less damage taken difference. You can see the formula here: https://fractured.wiki.gg/wiki/Resistances
That's the stats on a +0 Poor quality Mountain Dragon Rogue set with all of the defensive talents. A 0+ Poor quality Mithril Knight set will be ~1500 physical defenses and ~900 magical defenses with the same set of talents. That means for Pierce and Crush, this Mithril set will reduce the damage an extra 9%. That isn't nothing, but...
Is that extra physical damage reduction from a Knight set worth a minimum 32 point encumbrance difference. That is -6.4% Attack Speed, - 6.4% Movement Speed, -9.6% to all of your damage, and a whopping -64% chance to dodge. PLUS the loss of any spell casting potential.
Please, keep in mind. That is the literal highest base physical defense armor set against a leather set that is not meant for tanking as far as I know.
But wait, take the resistances from that screen shot and add 160 to each of those physical resistances to account for Mage Armor at 20 WIS and 0 Proficiency. A very easy number to meet. It does use up one slot skill slot, but the Pierce and Crush damage reduction drops to 6%. This bonus can to up to 300 for each physical resistance stat if you went 25 WIS and 10 Proficiency. (I don't think that is likely which is why I do not include that number by default.)
I ask every person out there, is that balanced? A minimum 32 point encumbrance difference. -6.4% Attack Speed, - 6.4% Movement Speed, -9.6% to all of your damage, and a whopping -64% chance to dodge. For those extra defenses, not to mention effort of making Mithril. I say no.
I do not deny that armors with higher base stats are easier to scale. I do not deny that Knight armor can more easily hit 2k/80% damage reduction. What I am saying is the defenses from armor sets are not balanced between each other or according to their downsides. Not at their base levels, not when you consider the damage reduction formula, and the downsides of encumbrance.
When you combine evade and the current armor values, it is far too easy to reach high physical damage mitigation levels - especially on lower encumbrance equipment.
If you are rolling around in any heavy armor set, I honestly think you are hurting yourself. Make a basic leather set and get to 1k evasion and try it out. If you really want to push it, you can make it out of Mountain Dragon Leather and or Make it a Rogue/Ranger set to get the numbers up.
P.S. I've never, in my entire life, had to argue so hard for a player power nerf. I show up with numbers and examples. I fully document 0 to hero leveling runs that display how strong my methods are. And when I start asking for nerfs, I get dismissed out of hand without even the effort at serious consideration. That just kinda blows my mind.
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@Xulu Thanks, but remember that I'm just one person and I'm not infallible (for example, I'm pretty sure the energy resist numbers on all of those are too low because I misread the new Mage Armor). Also, I'm actually asking for a rebalance of all armors that would overall be a nerf ;D
These guys are smart and I think they know their numbers too. In this case, I just think there is a difference between what the numbers say on paper and what they actually reflect in practice. For example, Promethus and Spoletta are totally right when they point out that quality and enchants will make a Knight set (the higher base values) scale more quickly/easily. However, I know that, in practice, a well made leather set lets me easily kill any non-legendary in the game solo. (Without relying on proficiency imbues.)
I have not gotten out to try the new patch, but I don't see anything in the notes that makes me feel like that has changed.
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@Yalah said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
The difference between 1500 and 2000 resistances is 5% less damage taken difference. You can see the formula here: https://fractured.wiki.gg/wiki/Resistances
The difference between 1500 and 2000 resistances is 20% less damage taken (20% vs 25%), that's the correct way to see it balance-wise. Example: a 2000 damage attack from a legend deals 400 damage instead of 500 damage (20% less), which could make the difference between life and death. However, I agree with you that we need to revise the formula to make the last points more impactful (if it was 65% vs 80% for example, i.e.43% less damage taken, it would be much better).
@Yalah said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
However, I know that, in practice, a well made leather set lets me easily kill any non-legendary in the game solo. (Without relying on proficiency imbues.)
That is another issue entirely. I am aware that you just heavily CC that ogre and you do it in light armor. We'll get to that.
@Xulu said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
If ogres were never meant to be solo'd, that should have been from day one. Ogres have always been solo'able. So, if that is just stripped from people, what are they to do now? Luckily, I can get my GF to play with me and I "was" able to tank while she killed stuff. Who knows now.
I agree with you we should have done better. Not fixing a mistake and letting it destroy the economy (or fixing it by making ogres and CR 7-8 mobs drop a pitiful loot) because people are used to killing them solo is not the way to go though.
As for you and your GF, you are two people, you can still do it
If not, just join a guild or team up with a random person on the way. Or be very careful pulling when alone - you'll be slower, but you'll manage. Or do something less challenging than ogres.
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@Prometheus said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
@Yalah said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
The difference between 1500 and 2000 resistances is 5% less damage taken difference. You can see the formula here: https://fractured.wiki.gg/wiki/Resistances
The difference between 1500 and 2000 resistances is 20% less damage taken (20% vs 25%), that's the correct way to see it balance-wise. Example: a 2000 damage attack from a legend deals 400 damage instead of 500 damage (20% less), which could make the difference between life and death. However, I agree with you that we need to revise the formula to make the last points more impactful (if it was 65% vs 80% for example, i.e.43% less damage taken, it would be much better).
I consider legendary fights to be completely separate for the purposes of my comments. I am not suggesting it would be a good idea to tank the very hardest monsters in non-heavy armor. I'm saying that for the other 90%+ of content, the heavier armors are uneeded and only penalize you because the other armors are too good.
@Yalah said in Patch b.1.0g - Economy, PvE & PvP Balancing:
However, I know that, in practice, a well made leather set lets me easily kill any non-legendary in the game solo. (Without relying on proficiency imbues.)
That is another issue entirely. I am aware that you just heavily CC that ogre and you do it in light armor. We'll get to that.
Other people do that. The only CC that I use is Aura of Oppression and that's not actually needed as much as it's helpful and I have extra slots.
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Divine Reward drops are now 25% higher for players of Neutral alignment on Aerhen (e.g. 8% becomes 10%).
Why not consider making Neutrals the only players who can participate in faction-v-faction warfare, or at a minimum prevent good players from participating?
Seems like FvF should be the real draw both to Aerhen and to being Neutral, not a lore-dubious bonus that diminishes PvE on Terra.
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Another issue is the nerf to solo play. If you want people to play in groups, better support for it would help, including and especially loot splits.
I note that if killing Ogres in groups were more gold-efficient per player than solo, you wouldn't need to do a solo nerf.
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@Roccandil Yeah do Group Content. Spells not work right for group
but yeah nerf it all to make it worse From the Voice:
"HEAL ME!!!"
"I CANT IT NOT WORKING! I CANT TARGET YOU" ...
But yeah do it more Group content with nerfs it is good way when spells and abilitys even dont work right
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What you're seeing is fairly common among game development. People just hate nerfs. Nerfs being followed by rage is a trend you'll see in many games. No matter how big the studios are. Players just hate nerfs, even if they are needed. Ideally, in a perfect world, you want to try to pair the nerfs with something else. To throw a bone to the players, so to speak. Major content update. Or major buffs to other parts of the game. Too many nerfs and those being the focus of the patch ends up sparking negative reactions more. For example, look at Blizzard and the blowback they got with D4 in one of the initial patches that was mainly just nerfs. So yeah these players reactions are not surprising. I think another aspect is just time investment for builds. Because getting gear takes long in this game compared to most games out there, players feel nerfs greater as it will give this subtext that their work in getting that gear is diminished. 24 hour trait resets was a good decision to help mitigate this.
Hoping that the next patch will help raise the spirits of people who are upset in forums/disc/game.
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They destroyed the Latin community with this patch, there are very few Spanish-speaking people and therefore, not speaking English, we have to farm alone, now it is impossible for us, I love the game but today for the first time I started looking at other games for It really was difficult for me to make my build to farm and I see that it no longer works.
