Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience"
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@Pluto said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Tuoni said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Pluto said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
BDO has convenience items. Heck, doesn't the new anti p2w archeage have convenience items?
Yeah BDO has convenience items, but I do not have any knowledge about Archeage. Sorry, but I guess I missed your point.
"Many gaming companies do a good amount of money with cosmetics"
I was just saying this statement is pretty false for mmos. Most have cosmetics and convenience items.
I do not see why it is a false argument, because MMOs can make a really good income with cosmetics (if that is their thing and if they want to). This is a very common way especially in Asian MMOs and AoC for example is selling cosmetics like crazy even A1 is not even started.
I was not comparing these to convenience stuff, which can ofc give company even more money, and why those are so tempting to add at first place. Convenience usually milks money at the beginning, but may be bad investment for long term if people are getting against them. Depends ofc a lot of the conveniences itself.
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I think when people discuss wanting a sub it is for the base game. The sub is going to have little conveniences attached as far as we know, so I consider it part of the convenience side of the cash shop
AoC is not a MMO right now, it is a battle royal IIRC. Pretty sure they also sold land/houses etc in their kickstarter. Also, I would not really call them a shining example at this point haha
If you can find a successful mmo with JUST cosmetics, I would be mighty impressed and say that is the exception and not the norm.
The problem with tying yourself to a bad financial model from the get go is you are shooting your own foot. Release is far from the end of the road, stale content will drive people away much faster than a bank space or skill potion will. The thing about convenience items is they give the devs some slack to develop for the actual game, as they are recurrent purchases. Cosmetics do take time, would you rather have a new NPCs art mapped out, or some fluffy wings?
I have come across games where the cash grab was just as real towards cosmetics, and the game grew stale due to lack of content.
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@Pluto said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
AoC is not a MMO right now, it is a battle royal IIRC. Pretty sure they also sold land/houses etc in their kickstarter. Also, I would not really call them a shining example at this point haha
If you can find a successful mmo with JUST cosmetics, I would be mighty impressed and say that is the exception and not the norm.
The problem with tying yourself to a bad financial model from the get go is you are shooting your own foot. Release is far from the end of the road, stale content will drive people away much faster than a bank space or skill potion will. The thing about convenience items is they give the devs some slack to develop for the actual game, as they are recurrent purchases. Cosmetics do take time, would you rather have a new NPCs art mapped out, or some fluffy wings?
I have come across games where the cash grab was just as real towards cosmetics, and the game grew stale due to lack of content.
I have not talked about cosmetics to be the only income for the company, you have just presumed so.
To have a F2P game with only cosmetics in cash shop can ofc be challenging and at least needs a really appealing cosmetics to work out. Combining cosmetic cash shop to B2P or SUBS models is an option.AoC is a really good example how well cosmetics can sell even the game is at very early development stage. People still bought those even the Apoc side project, but I really hope they won't anymore.
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@Pluto so you think people want 2 subs? Imo that wouldnt work and would make the company look greedy
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@Xzoviac said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Pluto so you think people want 2 subs? Imo that wouldnt work and would make the company look greedy
No. I think you will notice that I mentioned a true sub model is not possible at this time. It would have had to be a discussion before any packs were ever sold
A true sub model involves a monthly subscription to pay for the base game and all updates. There is no VIP, no convenience items, but there could still be cosmetics
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@Pluto said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Xzoviac said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Pluto so you think people want 2 subs? Imo that wouldnt work and would make the company look greedy
No. I think you will notice that I mentioned a true sub model is not possible at this time. It would have had to be a discussion before any packs were ever sold
A true sub model involves a monthly subscription to pay for the base game and all updates. There is no VIP, no convenience items, but there could still be cosmetics
But they could make the vip almost mandatory like eso does with the infinite crafting bag.
Not that I'm suggesting they do it's would be fairly scummy
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@Xzoviac said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Pluto said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Xzoviac said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Pluto so you think people want 2 subs? Imo that wouldnt work and would make the company look greedy
No. I think you will notice that I mentioned a true sub model is not possible at this time. It would have had to be a discussion before any packs were ever sold
A true sub model involves a monthly subscription to pay for the base game and all updates. There is no VIP, no convenience items, but there could still be cosmetics
But they could make the vip almost mandatory like eso does with the infinite crafting bag.
Not that I'm suggesting they do it's would be fairly scummy
Albion Online has also this monthly premium package, which is kind of "optional" subscription. In practise the benefits are almost mandatory if you do not want to grind your ass off for example. For some people the premium costs are not a problem, because you can buy that also with ingame currency. Still quite shady system imo.
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the sub model is dead. in the last 5 years all sub games had to switch to a f2p or vip style system to survive. the only exception is FFXIV, and it had a huge following. we're now at a point where FFXIV is 6 years so that doesn't even count.
Warframe and Path of Exile have done great with their respective systems, however, neither have PvP where you can loot a corpse. PoE at least has cosmetic with some storage options. Warframe allows anyone to farm then trade for shop currency.
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@Jetah said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
the sub model is dead. in the last 5 years all sub games had to switch to a f2p or vip style system to survive. the only exception is FFXIV, and it had a huge following. we're now at a point where FFXIV is 6 years so that doesn't even count.
Warframe and Path of Exile have done great with their respective systems, however, neither have PvP where you can loot a corpse. PoE at least has cosmetic with some storage options. Warframe allows anyone to farm then trade for shop currency.
And world of warcraft I dont mind subs I will take it over pay 2 win anyway, but if I gotta sub i expect good ingame customer service like wow.
No other company has done the customer service with in game gms as well as wow has, even if its game has become pretty meh in recent years
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I just hope multibox will not be allowed.
WoW classic has a lot multi boxers atm. People pay for 5 subs, then control 5 chars simultaneously and farm at 5x rate, which is a clear pay to win, and I don't see Blizzard doing much about it.
Some people even converted multibox to multibox BOTs and are letting BOTs run at night while GMs are at sleep...
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I agree a sub based game is the best way to even the playing field. Subs just don't work for me any more because I don't have the time to play like I did in my 20s. For that reason I feel I'm cheating myself on the sub lol. The sub is one of the reasons I dropped SWTOR. My playing time dropped so much I felt I wasn't getting my money's worth.
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@Farlander said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
I agree a sub based game is the best way to even the playing field. Subs just don't work for me any more because I don't have the time to play like I did in my 20s. For that reason I feel I'm cheating myself on the sub lol. The sub is one of the reasons I dropped SWTOR. My playing time dropped so much I felt I wasn't getting my money's worth.
I would gladly pay monthly subs to get that equal playground. I understand your concern of the payment, but even you averagely play just 1-2 hours in a day I guess 10€ for example is not a bad price, or what you think? Of course you need to get some counterpart for you monthly invest like @Xzoviac mentioned so it would feel like worth it. AOC for example has planned a free game with subs, and imo that sounds really nice and easy, because there is no starting cost from the game itself.
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@Gothix said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
I just hope multibox will not be allowed.
WoW classic has a lot multi boxers atm. People pay for 5 subs, then control 5 chars simultaneously and farm at 5x rate, which is a clear pay to win, and I don't see Blizzard doing much about it.
Some people even converted multibox to multibox BOTs and are letting BOTs run at night while GMs are at sleep...
They might allow the multiboxing, but botting is still illegal and will lead to ban if get caught. Imo the multiboxing should not be allowed at first place, but gaming companies sees these as extra income and that is why those are allowed in many cases. If I remember right, in Albion Online multiboxing was also allowed, but your characters were not allowed to interact with each other any way.. Well that is better than nothing.
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My favored alternative is the one planned here. I prefer no sub with micro transactions for cosmetics. Cosmetics are such a huge thing for most players. I would expect this generates decent income for the devs. They are easy to introduce because they cause no balance issues with the game itself.
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Not many MMOs can get by with just B2P and cosmetics. (I do not count BRs as MMOs)
Yes that is ideal, but I would not expect it long term.
Also, cosmetics are not easy to introduce they require a good amount of dev time
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@Pluto said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
Not many MMOs can get by with just B2P and cosmetics. (I do not count BRs as MMOs)
I presume you still refer to AoC with this... I do not try to protect Intrepid Studios' actions and their Apocalypse project, and actually I am quite disapointed and mad about it. Anyway, those who have bought and still buys the cosmetics are mainly MMO players. Some of them takes Apocalypse purely as a testing ground and some hopes, that they will get some day the MMO product what they backed at first place. People also buys these cosmetics, because they can bring all what they have purchased to the MMO version too. Yeah I have to admit, that those cosmetics looks pretty good, even not so much of my taste, but I really understand if people like those. So my point is, that even the MMO version of Ashes is at A0 stage and the BR version launched as early access, still the cosmetics are mainly sold for MMO and not for the pure BR players. This is why AoC is a valid example how good cosmetics can sell, and if there would be the MMO game released already, those cosmetics would sell multiple times more.
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It was actually commentary on BRs in general, fortnight, pubg etc. I assume they can make it work because the infrastructure is not as taxing. A mmo is another story. I do not know of a single MMO that is purely cosmetic
Some have tried, but found it does not work.
Everything you are saying is speculation. Get back to me when AoC is a mmo.
I think rather than get up in arms about convenience (it is an eventuality), it would be better to have a discussion on what is acceptable.
Which is why I personally think they should flesh out their plan a little more
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@Pluto said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
Everything you are saying is speculation. Get back to me when AoC is a mmo.
If everything what I am saying is speculation in your opinion, that just shows how less you know about the whole situation. You do not seam to understand, that it does not matter if there is not that MMO yet or will it actually ever be, still those cosmetics are sold in the name of the MMO.
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@Farlander said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
My favored alternative is the one planned here. I prefer no sub with micro transactions for cosmetics. Cosmetics are such a huge thing for most players. I would expect this generates decent income for the devs. They are easy to introduce because they cause no balance issues with the game itself.
yeah i've been saying this quite a bunch. it leave any power or convenience out of it and just lets the people dress how they want. I can see character slots and what not still there.
@Pluto
Path of Exile. their whole crowdfunding was only cosmetic. I've even been arguing Warframe only because any player can not pay and still have access to the whole store (steam fan made cosmetics aside) just by trading items found in game.
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Path of exile sells convenience items. You can buy extra tabs
Warframe you can buy warframes
I completely understand the situation, I am saying your assumptions that it will sustain the mmo itself is speculation. Heck the BR has only been out a few months, we do not even know if that alone is sustainable
A cosmetic only model sounds fantastic, but it is also naive unfortunately. I mean they literally already sold convenience with the carpenter
Like I have said before, I think a better discussion is "what will we put up with"
