Trade caravans...?
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@Logain said in Trade caravans...?:
What would prevent me from taking two friends and killing your dozen veterans from a distance, one by one, retreating when in danger?
Another player attacking you alongside those merc NPCs.
NPCs should never be able to beat human players on their own. They should only be slight help so they can turn the tide if player forces are balanced against each other.
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@Gothix said in Trade caravans...?:
@Logain said in Trade caravans...?:
What would prevent me from taking two friends and killing your dozen veterans from a distance, one by one, retreating when in danger?
Another player attacking you alongside those merc NPCs.
NPCs should never be able to beat human players on their own. They should only be slight help so they can turn the tide if player forces are balanced against each other.
I don't think an NPC merc or NPC guard should be able to win a 1v1 against any decent player, but they should be formidable enough to give raiders and highwaymen a moment or two of pause.
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@Gothix said in Trade caravans...?:
(...)NPCs should never be able to beat human players on their own(...)
So, if NPCs are basically useless, that gets me back to my original question for @Alexian, what he expects from a 'Caravan', other than players driving wagons. Because players driving wagons are trivial to implement, and I'd doubt any game could 'fail to deliver on that'.
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@Logain said in Trade caravans...?:
@Gothix said in Trade caravans...?:
(...)NPCs should never be able to beat human players on their own(...)
So, if NPCs are basically useless, that gets me back to my original question for @Alexian, what he expects from a 'Caravan', other than players driving wagons. Because players driving wagons are trivial to implement, and I'd doubt any game could 'fail to deliver on that'.
By a caravan, I mean what it means. A multitude of people, their mounts, and their wagons full of materials, crisscrossing the landscape to bring their items from one place to the next.
Those really aren’t a thing in Albion despite being a point of advertisement
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Caravans are both about PvE and PvP (exception is Arboreus, where there is no PvP).
Traveling distance vs profit, with risks of theft it involves. One person riding his personal cart isn't much of a gain, this will be a target of skirmishes... but a guild organizing a common caravan of many of members going together, and then another guild having a spy somewhere and hearing about it and then you have GvG around caravan goods.
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@Alexian said in Trade caravans...?:
(...)Those really aren’t a thing in Albion(...)
(...)
- A multitude of people
- their mounts
- wagons full of materials
- bring their items from one place to the next.
I guess I should have phrased my question a little more precise.
You have trading ox in Albion, so that'd be '(2)mount and (3)wagon full of material, other than graphical difference of not being a wagon. (1)multiple people and (4)transporting their goods is somewhat of a player choice.
What would you need changed to consider it a successful implementation of caravan?
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Ashes of Creation is going to implement a very detailed caravan system, it would be one option to follow up progression of what IS is doing and take few tips from there into the Fractured. However, in Ashes the caravan system will be one of the core features why it will also be a huge resource sink. I am not saying DS should just copy IS caravan system, but more like take some ideas from there if needed. Leaving caravans for players is also fine and working like in Albion, and maybe that is the good place to start with.
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why do you assume you and a friend could kill them? maybe the AI decides to follow you despite there being a 10m rule because you're low HP.
why do you assume the AI would only be melee and the person hiring them wouldn't get ranged, melee, and support? the AI could be cavalry too which is used to scout 30m around the caravan. maybe there're scouts further along the path looking for hostiles.
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@Jetah said in Trade caravans...?:
@Logain said in Trade caravans...?:
@Farlander said in Trade caravans...?:
(...)one group would be escorting 1 wagon(...)
Players or NPCs? It's easy enough with players, there are no additional requirements. But with NPCs, how do you handle the AI? Should the caravan stop or continue during a raid? Do the guards keep locked to the caravan or do they pursue the bandits?
Because if they stay around the caravan, it's easy enough to pick them out from a distance, one by one. If they follow the bandits, you send in one bait, lure them off and then raid the helpless wagons.the AI depends on how much you spend
if you buy the best geared (call them veterans or something) then they'll stay withing 10m of the caravan. maybe these come standard with better gear but still worse than player crafted.
if you buy the second best they may wonder a little further, say 15-20m away.
the new mercs are easily baited so they'll go even further!maybe you could buy.. er rent some new mercs and they gain exp if they dont die!
another option could be you outfit them with gear or they use their own (which is worst to equal to bad player created gear). IE if a player has white tier gear as a base then they'll have a mix of gray and white. I only offer this because it's a player economy and crafters need all the means necessary to sell/trade gear.I'll note that these AI mercs shouldn't drop gear as it could be easily exploited/farmed (if it's their base gear, player crafted gear can be acquisition!)
I like the thought of AI , mercenary groups learning and becoming better at defending objectives the more they are used
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that would be cool and all but i used AI more as NPC.
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@Jetah said in Trade caravans...?:
that would be cool and all but i used AI more as NPC.
A ai merc group defending objectives they have been hired for by guilds, would be non playable characters, that is why they need AI
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@Jetah said in Trade caravans...?:
(...)maybe the AI decides to follow you despite there being a 10m rule because you're low HP(...)
That is exactly why I asked in the first place. The reason is as easy as it is sad. Have you ever worked on AI? I'd hope we can all agree on that ML (Machine Learning) is far, far past the scope and not affordable resource wise for Fractured. That leaves you basically with two options, either a state engine, or fuzzy logic and most games (very, VERY likely including Fractured) are going with a state engine. And even a simple state engine can get rather taxing on the CPU (since you have to run a high number for a low cost) if too complex.
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I love developing concepts and how they work. I love it when someone can't imagine something happening and I can explain it further. Imagination seems to be limited or even non-existent when it comes to some imaginary systems.
Can DS have ML, sure. Will they have it, probably not. But I like to imagine the concept of it existing within the game world. Maybe one day someone will develop a ML backend that game developers can plug in to their game! It doesn't have to be complex to the point of each NPC developing their own personality, but could be limited in some manor. It would be very neat to know that the caravan merc's can gain knowledge and develop fighting tactics if they survive to the end. It would be neat if those NPCs could teach other merc NPCs what they've learned so that the whole system of Mercenary NPC improves. This is an example of the imaginary creativity as stated above.
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@Jetah said in Trade caravans...?:
(...)I love it when someone can't imagine something happening and I can explain it further(...)
I think you misunderstand me. It's not that I can not imagine it, it is that I know the price tag and hence how unrealistic it is.
@Jetah said in Trade caravans...?:
(...)Maybe one day someone will develop a ML backend that game developers can plug in to their game!(...)
While not trivial, it's not complicated either (even less so with SpatialOS). Technical viability is not the limiting factor there. Plain old money very much is on the other hand. ML is GPU/CPU intense and GPU/CPU cycles aren't cheap, even less on SpatialOS. With a $50 monthly subscription, your idea would be realistic.
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it doesn't have to be realistic to imagine how it'd work.
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@Jetah said in Trade caravans...?:
(...)it doesn't have to be realistic to imagine how it'd work.
Sorry, I thought we were discussing the question on how Fractured would accomplish something other games did not (according to the original poster, or at least the solution provided didn't satisfy him). And that somewhat implies a realistic approach, doesn't it?
