Optional wasd movement?
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@Gothix said in Optional wasd movement?:
@Tuoni argument here is not to remove point to click in favor of WASD. The argument is to have both in same time, so players have an option to use any they like OR to use them both simultaneously (which I would personally prefer).
I know, that is why I said it will need a lot of resources to work with two moving options and balance those with together. That only is good enough reason to go with just one moving style.
I have used both moving styles so I do not have to promote the one I am more familiar with. Just from my experience click to move works better in isometric MMO games and WASD better almost in every other. Even click to move is old moving style it still works so damn good, why many isometric games still prefers that. Albion Online has only click to move system in use and it works so well that there is no need for another option. I remember how this same topic was discussed there during the beta test, but I do not remember why the devs were exactly againts implementing WASD. I will try to find the reasons.
It would be actually a good thing if devs here would open up a little bit why they are not going with WASD and what kind of challenges that would cause to them. Maybe that would make people more to understand the choise.
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Finally I found discussion where Stefan, developer and founder of Albion Online, tells people why they do not go with WASD. I will copy here his posts and I will put the link for whole conversation if someone is interested (propably not, but I will put it anyway) to read that. I wanted to point this out, because there is a lot of same with SBI and DS. Both are small studios (SBI ain't anymore, but were back then) with limited resources, and both have kind of same vision of the movement and how it will affect to the combat.
Will there be an option for WASD movement for PC players?
"So just to be clear when you say you want WASD movement you want it like it is in Hotline Miami? So a digital input which gives you only 8 possible movement directions?"
"I can't even say, when and if we would implement it. The controls are optimised for a movement similar to Diablo, LOL. I understand that there are some people asking for it and we will evaluate here if it is a low hanging fruit we can add but nothing promised right now."
"The reason not to implement it is that it takes effort to implement and to maintain which cant be spent on other features, in particular if you consider that it is an inferior movement scheme. Someone playing with WASD would probably never kill someone playing with mouse movement. So despite the effort which is a key argument for a small team like ours it is also the general principle of implementing something that is not the best choice for our game and will "very likely" be only used by a minority. Small Sidenote: To the guys who are asking for WASD movement, eventually just play the game first and see how it feels?"
"I would add reason No 3 here:
When you say that having no WASD movement is a killer for you then I truly believe that even if we implement it you still wouldn't be happy about it cause it is not the right design choice for the game we are making, it just would feel wrong!
If you say that it's a killer for you that is ok for me as well. One thing I learned once we started this project is that I can't make everyone happy and instead we as a developer have to focus on our core concept. The feedback from the community is always very important to us, but in this case it does not fit into the whole movement concept.""Reason 4 against WASD movement:
When we started Albion Online it was clear for us that there is a huge probability that we will release and have to shut down everything soon after cause we realise we can't survive. So when deciding about new features to implement: We always ask ourselves will this feature make a difference if we survive or not, will this feature significantly change the amount of people who will play the game.""And in terms of the WASD movement is the answer NO, it is not a key feature we need. Instead we are putting all our focus on the core game mechanics with which we are still not satisfied. In other words: We can't afford to work on an optional movement control as long as the game is not great fun to play!"
"It is still a long time till then and a lot of things might happen and I never say never. I can also tell you once the game goes live things will get tougher for us and we will face completely new problems which have nothing to do with new features."
Kind regards,
Stefan
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@Tuoni said in Optional wasd movement?:
@Jetah said in Optional wasd movement?:
When moving is with mouse, it leaves easier access to use abilities from keyboard. For example Q, W, E, R, T, Y, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Trying to use abilities with WASD is harder.
false. otherwise wow wouldn't have done it. WoW has 12 keybinds "1 through =", plus any additional you need, and uses WASD to move, plus moving the camera with the mouse. There's also modifiers with shift, alt, control so those 12 can be 84! while still using WASD to move and holding the rmb to move the camera!
False? If you use mouse to move with your right hand then you have your left hand totally free for abilities on keyboard.
@Prometheus (this is feedback on the current click-to-move too) and i've clicked on trees needing to move while being chased by a bear. only to attempt to harvest then die by said bear. you forget this game will have interaction with the environment, rocks, branches, flowers, ore, etc. anyone of those can stop your character and end in death. WASD would completely prevent it. Even with WASD your hand is still able to reach all the actions you'll need for Fractured, which is much less than WoW. I'm sure people will bind Shift to at least 1 ability and 1-x for the rest. The reason MOBA can keep click-to-move is because the environment isn't interactable at all or much less than in a MMO.
Yes, in WoW you have more directions because moving camera is supporting WASD, but in Fractured moving is not like in WoW. You do not have that chance to turn camera and because of that you can only go 8 directions. Still waiting example of isometric game where you can have more directions in use with WASD.
8 or 16 or 32 don't matter. i'm not sure why you're so caught up on it. for long duration travel using a key will be more comfortable than holding the mouse button.
@Jetah said in Optional wasd movement?:
@Tuoni said in Optional wasd movement?:
What valueable WASD moving systems brings on table what current click to move can not already handle?
controllers can be setup to play the game where disabled individuals would have access. if the game was on console one stick would be movement, it'd be no different in this situation.
I do not know what you mean by this, but the game is not designed for consoles.
point was (hince the IF part) the movement would be similar to a console. direction with WASD is no different than direction with a stick/d-pad.
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@Jetah interaction with environment is easy to fix, for example making mouse right click not to interact with anything. Same goes with holding mouse button down for auto-moving.
Do not make false arguments how many directions WASD can go in isometric games and I do not need to stick with that. So simple.
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it's the click to move part that can hit an interaction. only games with a forced move (poe and Diablo series) or WASD stop that.
WASD can have 8 directions. if you need more precise then you'd use the mouse. but realistically you'd never need more than that. even WoW has a turn option, instead of strafe, which allows the person to move the character with more precision (it's bad tho). it's really only good for out of combat.
WASD could be WS for north/south and AD for turn (again i'd hate this) or AD can strafe if the mouse is over a target (of any type). but that's fail a little in real combat.
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@Jetah another option would be to have combat and exploration mode. in combat, weapons are drawn and you don't interact with environment unless it's a specific combat interaction (vault over obstacles, trigger traps, set fire to bushes, break obstacles activate leavers, doors etc). In exploration mode, weapons are sheathed and you may interact with the environment. This would also add to immersion. I would even dare suggest dropping the backpack when entering combat mode for added immersion as they do in a different title, but in an MMO that would leave your inventory vulnerable to theft and i think most players wouldn't really appreciate that... even with the crime system in place.
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@Jetah said in Optional wasd movement?:
it's the click to move part that can hit an interaction. only games with a forced move (poe and Diablo series) or WASD stop that.
Well I already told you how this can be fixed easily. When you are moving you can click either left or right mouse button. Left interacts with environment and right click does not. Also keeping either mouse button down you auto-move and you do not interact with environment. On top of that games can use @Darian 's Combat and out of combat -method. These are very standard ways to handle this interacting problem, so I am once again very irritated of your claims (only forced move) which has zero truth behind.
And what it comes to WASD. We are talking about Fractured here, which is an isometric game, and where you can not use camera to help you with moving. So it is totally vain to use WoW as an example here. You can compare WASD movement to another isometric MMO and you can check out how clunky that 8 direction move can actually look like.
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Having a special extra command to put you in or out of combat mode would take a LOT from fluidity of the game and would quite likely be a very hated thing.
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@Gothix said in Optional wasd movement?:
Having a special extra command to put you in or out of combat mode would take a LOT from fluidity of the game and would quite likely be a very hated thing.
What @Darian meant was not extra command, more like if you are in combat then you can not interact with resource nodes for example. So basically the game decides when you are in or out of combat.
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@Tuoni
odds are we'll have abilities on those 2 buttonsagain, I've mentioned at least 3 isometric games with WASD!!!!! the WoW thing was an example sense i didnt know if you've seen the videos of those WASD isometric games.
i'm not sure why but you remind me of Finland.
@Darian
yeah. combat = no interaction with the environment. only problem I can see is "you're in combat" but you haven't for the past 2 minutes =/
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I'd just like to say that I am effectively using WASD right now in the Fractured alpha and it is working splendidly. Using re-wasd I have the mouse movement mapped to the dpad of a controller. You know, the classic 4 buttons for movement? Often noted as WASD on a keyboard ;)?
Adding legitimate WASD control would make native support much more fluid. As it stands I need to have a toggle button for movement (ie. click and hold to initiate movement). If there was WASD movement I could separate the mouse control from movement
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@Jetah said in Optional wasd movement?:
@Tuoni
again, I've mentioned at least 3 isometric games with WASD!!!!! the WoW thing was an example sense i didnt know if you've seen the videos of those WASD isometric games.What it comes to our discussion between you an I, you have only referred to WoW when commenting on my writings. What you have discussed about other people over a year ago is totally irrelevant and not related with my post, where I compared angular and clunky 8 direction moving to smoother moving possibilities with mouse. You should have been referring to one of those isometric MMOs then and not to WoW. I do not know, but it feels like you are just trying to mess up conversations with false arguments and interfering to irrelevant points.
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@Tuoni I'm quite certain everyone here wants a great game. It would thus make sense for all of us to refrain from judging persons and stick to debating the subject at hand.
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@Tuoni said in Optional wasd movement?:
What @Darian meant was not extra command, more like if you are in combat then you can not interact with resource nodes for example. So basically the game decides when you are in or out of combat.
Sooo that means I can gather with few friends, we can tag a poor guy so that he is in combat, and heal ourselves so he can not kill us... and just follow him around.... he will completely be prevented from gathering up anything, anywhere... and he can not simply run away from us, because we do not kill him and let him ressurect somewhere else and walk away. That poor guys day is ruined... And we do not get tagged as murderers or thieves even, because we do not kill him.
And if he happened to be somewhere far away from any city, he can not seek help easily... there is not fast travel, specially not in combat.... and world isa big place... long time to run to anywhere.
So when he is in combat he can not interact with environment, so he can not do anything at all, harvest, build house, nothing....
Sounds like a good idea.
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@Gothix First of all, you get crime points for attacking, so it does have consequence for the griever crew. Especially since they will most likely need to reinforce that tag every 10 seconds or something, thus racking up those crime points really fast. The victim could also log out and hit an alt char that's in Aroboreus, where this sort of grieving is not possible. Plus, when several players waste their time on a single char, they will not achieve much on the grand scheme. So unless they are psychotic or something, they will get bored of it quite fast.
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@Darian said in Optional wasd movement?:
@Gothix First of all, you get crime points for attacking, so it does have consequence for the griever crew. Especially since they will most likely need to reinforce that tag every 10 seconds or something, thus racking up those crime points really fast. The victim could also log out and hit an alt char that's in Aroboreus, where this sort of grieving is not possible. Plus, when several players waste their time on a single char, they will not achieve much on the grand scheme. So unless they are psychotic or something, they will get bored of it quite fast.
- Placing yourself in combat tags you as aggressive only, nothing more, and it doesn't "rack up" anything... also you can just stay in combat permanently by continuing to fight, you will not drop out of combat every 10 sec for no reason..
- You can not log out in combat, it's to prevent people logging out to save their resources when attacked.. so that player will not be able to log off.
- There are too many "psychotic" players in the world. Take wow for example, people stay online whole days just to camp lowbies. So there are way too many people that will definitely not get bored by doing that.
Sooo, everything you said was false.
Sorry, about that.Conclusion: mechanic to make you not able to interact with environment while in combat would just be extremely bad and holy grail of trolling.
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@Gothix in games like Fractured there might be situations where pk chases his prey a really long distance trying to kill that. Sometimes even to safezones. Now this player for sure tries to escape your grieffing team. He might even have escape abilities (especially if gatherer) what he can use to get away and then mount up. I have never heard such scenario happen in Albion so good luck for trying.
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@Gothix In addition, I personally would try to run grieffers to mobs or I might even call guild members for help and collect free loot. Poor end of day for griefers.
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@Tuoni
I posted a link to a game that is an isometric with WASD. It was the Necro of this thread!I’m willing to think you didn’t see any gameplay footage of it.
I don’t see players always needing 360° of precision movement. I hate needing to move the mouse across my screen to move my character and attempt to attack something. I’ve already died to a bear because the clock to move was an interactive object which paused my character to run an animation. That isn’t fun and it’ll happen to others and they’ll complain.
Most of your movement can be done with WASD even 8 directions won’t be a hindrance. Again it could be programmed so that it’s as smooth as a mouse.
