Emergent NPC AI



  • what u guys think of Emergent NPC AI? from Everquest: Next what u think guys add to fractured?


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    If it were anywhere near Everquest:Next-STAY AWAY FROM IT, LIKE FROM PLAGUE!!!


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    Inb4 orcs start showing up inside your own house, cus it's nice and safe in there, and there is loot in your chest. 😛


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    Nah! I'll place sign,"Bewere The Demon!" That'll scare them off.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    I'd love to see more real AI in games. even if there's a limit of what they can do.

    I watched one of the many 'transported to a video game world' anime and there was an event where the goblins would get high enough population that they'd start a crusade to the nearest 'major city'. it was pretty neat concept.


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @dawnofcrow If they had been able to pull off even half of what they were "trying" to put into EQ Next, they would have cornered the market quite heavily. I think it is one of the next logical steps in any sandbox style game.


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    All jokes aside, for now, things like that are too demanding. Too much team and money is, probably, required to make it work. Definitely not something a small, indie team can handle...Or a large AAA studio, for that matter.


  • TF#9 - FIRST AMBASSADOR

    I don't think I have ever seen smart AI in a computer game. Usually you just get overwhelmed by bigger mobs or enemies with overpowered stats. It would be refreshing to fight a npc and not be able to tell if it was another player or not.


  • TF#9 - FIRST AMBASSADOR

    @HalcyonFalx said in Emergent NPC AI:

    @dawnofcrow If they had been able to pull off even half of what they were "trying" to put into EQ Next, they would have cornered the market quite heavily. I think it is one of the next logical steps in any sandbox style game.

    This is kind of what Ashes of Creation is trying to accomplish with their node system. Zones will evolve and change based on player actions, and this contains also behaviour of NPCs, animals, creatures and mobs.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @deusex2 there was NOTHING wrong with EQ-Next, I still haven't figured out wtf happened with that project... they had some of the greatest ideas at least on paper. as @HalcyonFalx said even if they had managed to do HALF of the things they promised it would have been an amazing mmorpg... oh well 😞


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @dawnofcrow this is similar to the "living world" concept thatmakers of Legends of Aria (used to be known as Shards mmo) were promising... the legend of aria devs realized that players were killing off mobs quicker than they could spawn... with the size of mmo population living/changing world just cant survive... the orcs would be massacred two seconds after spawning and wont even get the chance to walk two feet away from the spawn point let alone wander the world creating orc camps.... not sure why Devs haven't brought these ideas into single player though! would be amazing to have something like this in single player!


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @Althalus said in Emergent NPC AI:

    @dawnofcrow this is similar to the "living world" concept thatmakers of Legends of Aria (used to be known as Shards mmo) were promising... the legend of aria devs realized that players were killing off mobs quicker than they could spawn... with the size of mmo population living/changing world just cant survive... the orcs would be massacred two seconds after spawning and wont even get the chance to walk two feet away from the spawn point let alone wander the world creating orc camps.... not sure why Devs haven't brought these ideas into single player though! would be amazing to have something like this in single player!

    that's when you start increasing the stats of the newly spawned mobs. that should be part of their natural growth cycle. when they're stronger than the players, the players will move somewhere else. then the AI could change them further.


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @Althalus said in Emergent NPC AI:

    @deusex2 there was NOTHING wrong with EQ-Next, I still haven't figured out wtf happened with that project... they had some of the greatest ideas at least on paper. as @HalcyonFalx said even if they had managed to do HALF of the things they promised it would have been an amazing mmorpg... oh well 😞

    How about everything was wrong with it? It was simply too good to be true and ended up being reduced to Landgrab cash grab. Simply put, it was too much of a project for Sony backed Sony Online Entertainment, and later on, Columbus Nova backed Daybreak.



  • @Tuoni said in Emergent NPC AI:

    @HalcyonFalx said in Emergent NPC AI:

    @dawnofcrow If they had been able to pull off even half of what they were "trying" to put into EQ Next, they would have cornered the market quite heavily. I think it is one of the next logical steps in any sandbox style game.

    This is kind of what Ashes of Creation are trying to accomplish with their node system. Zones will evolve and change based on player actions, and this contains also the behavior of NPCs, animals, creatures, and mobs.

    cool look into it

    @deusex2 said in Emergent NPC AI:

    All jokes aside, for now, things like that are too demanding. Too much team and money is, probably, required to make it work. Definitely not something a small, indie team can handle...Or a large AAA studio, for that matter.

    ture but make stretch goals for it


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @dawnofcrow

    new $100m stretch goal: complete artificial intelligence for NPCs.. all of them!!!!


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @deusex2 said in Emergent NPC AI:

    (...)Too much team and money is, probably, required to make it work. Definitely not something a small, indie team can handle(...)

    I disagree and agree at the same time 😉
    I disagree that a 'small indie team' can not make that happen, simply because this is one of THE prime examples for where you can leverage your customer base. You build a simple visual programming interface and have your playerbase come up with the AI (if you want examples, look up Gladiabots for the visual interface and Screeps for what amazing AI developers come up with during their spare time 😉 ).
    The part where I agree with, is that this is nothing Fractured could do. If you want to tackle that problem, you basically require an on premise solution (heck you could even go with Fastly's Lucet if you're looking for a plug and play solution...), but since Fractured is based on SaaS, that would explode their cost.


  • TF#9 - FIRST AMBASSADOR

    What I have understood, Everquest Next had punch of a really good or even revolutionary ideas, but all of that were getting technically just too complex to implement in practise. I am not saying this was the only reason, but at least one of them.

    Here is one short article related what happened with Everquest Next:

    Technical hurdle


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @Logain said in Emergent NPC AI:

    @deusex2 said in Emergent NPC AI:

    (...)Too much team and money is, probably, required to make it work. Definitely not something a small, indie team can handle(...)

    I disagree and agree at the same time 😉
    I disagree that a 'small indie team' can not make that happen, simply because this is one of THE prime examples for where you can leverage your customer base. You build a simple visual programming interface and have your playerbase come up with the AI (if you want examples, look up Gladiabots for the visual interface and Screeps for what amazing AI developers come up with during their spare time 😉 ).
    The part where I agree with, is that this is nothing Fractured could do. If you want to tackle that problem, you basically require an on premise solution (heck you could even go with Fastly's Lucet if you're looking for a plug and play solution...), but since Fractured is based on SaaS, that would explode their cost.

    So, basically, letting players make their own AI scrips? I got that, mostly, right?


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @deusex2 said in Emergent NPC AI:

    So, basically, letting players make their own AI scrips? I got that, mostly, right?

    You stated that an indie company doesn't have the resources to develop AI that allows for high performance and diversity, but doesn't rely on machine learning (ML). I concur. No indie company should try that. What they can try though is to 'outsource' the task to the hundreds of programmers who are up for a task like that in their spare time free of charge, simply because strength is in numbers there (brute force attempt at problem solution). Now, you'd say, but Logain, no programmer is stupid enough to do that in their spare time for free! Which is why I linked Screeps, a game that is basically doing exactly that right now, it provides programmers with the challenge to write an AI (and the programmers actually pay the company to do that 😛 ). You can't just copy Screeps though, you would have to go from a pull to an event based API and while you'd need a sandbox, V8 isolates are a bad choice there (they are great for Screeps, for a different reason). A cost effective solution would be to leverage WebAssembly, for example though an open source project like Lucet. Now, since you'd want more people to participate then 'just programmers', you'd provide your own visual programming interface (like Google's Blockly, just with a bit more polish). It's not an absurd or new concept, actually, Chronicles of Elyria is basically doing that with their planned OPC scripting. All of that said, it is basically impossible for Fractured, because Fractured relies on a SaaS model (SpatialOS), which means the cost would be intense. If you want to pull something like this off, you'd have to go on premise, or maybe IaaS and handle your own load balancing instead.

    (Sorry for the long response with a few technical terms, but maybe you already guessed that's a topic I like and have spent a wee bit of time with).



  • @Logain I see you point the idea I see in fractured but I know that cost too much and lot peoples work on it


 

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