Economy Balance
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@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Sindariya Well I can not decide when I die so it is kind of hard to think all before hand..
Also if people can not store stuff outside of home and guild bank, it will make all activities far from home really annoying. You can basically play mostly in your own hoods.. That sounds kind of bad. I really need an answer from DS side. @Specter I have no idea, sorry. I'll ask Prometheus once he has time.
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@Specter said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Sindariya Well I can not decide when I die so it is kind of hard to think all before hand..
Also if people can not store stuff outside of home and guild bank, it will make all activities far from home really annoying. You can basically play mostly in your own hoods.. That sounds kind of bad. I really need an answer from DS side. @Specter I have no idea, sorry. I'll ask Prometheus once he has time.
I wouldn't mind a "bank" type building that could be built at a certain city level which would allow short storage of goods. There could be a fee or just a flat removal of the items after the allotted time.
Maybe bigger than a town but smaller than a city could have a "bank" building.
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@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
In Albion Online I even saw situations where refined materials and crafted gear pieces where multiple times cheaper than the resources (of that item). So it was impossible to make any profit with crafting or refining. So quality over quantity would be much better choise from economy and crafting point of view.
To an extent, that's true, but one mitigating factor is fame (experience): if you buy the raw materials, refine them yourself, and craft the items yourself, you get all the experience. In effect, by buying raw materials you're buying experience opportunity.
I suspect a lot of lower-tier items on the market are simply byproducts of grinding crafting. If I get an excellent or masterwork item, for instance, I'll probably sell it instead of breaking it down to study.
Also, since Albion has implemented F2P (as well as new portals in cities?), the economy appears to have shifted from what you describe. The royal cities in the T4 lands have extremely busy markets, and there are significant differentials in goods between them and Caerleon: you just have to risk running goods through red PvP zones to exploit them.
I've done a little exploring of black zones as well, and it's easy to get to them now from other royal cities (if you want to risk it). At the moment, at least, I don't see any reason to move my center of operations to Caerleon (and I'm looking forward to new functionality such as hideouts).
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@Tuoni Funny, the game we all have waited for, the walking simulator
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@Specter said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Sindariya Well I can not decide when I die so it is kind of hard to think all before hand..
Also if people can not store stuff outside of home and guild bank, it will make all activities far from home really annoying. You can basically play mostly in your own hoods.. That sounds kind of bad. I really need an answer from DS side. @Specter I have no idea, sorry. I'll ask Prometheus once he has time.
I would appreciate that.
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@Goemoe said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni Funny, the game we all have waited for, the walking simulator
But no worries, this can be disguised under exploration.
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@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Goemoe said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Sindariya Well I can not decide when I die so it is kind of hard to think all before hand..
Also if people can not store stuff outside of home and guild bank, it will make all activities far from home really annoying. You can basically play mostly in your own hoods.. That sounds kind of bad. I really need an answer from DS side. @Specter Actually I wonder all the time. The devs tell of removing the "grind" out of the game but add many tedious sounding things into it. After all, each player has a different understand of 'grinding' Some like leveling and quesing a lot. The advancement of the RPG char is the core of such games. Renaming the actions to do so, does not change the system.
Having to carry stuff around, though weight and space matter, might annoy quickling.
Having to explore to get Fractured XP, named knowledge points sound fun, but if you encounter difficult climate conditions large distances away from any access to your belongings might annoy quickly.
Having to reequip your char x times a day because your robbed and or killed many times a day might annoy quickly.
Trying to reach virtually unreachable areas in the game to up you skill, only because you need Tartarus as a beast or Arboreus as a demon will not feel great either.All this might quickly be viewed upon as grind. It is the risk vs. reward spiral which keep game like this interesting. Which is good. No game like this can work without features some people will name 'grind'
You have really valid points here. Grind can be defined few ways and players experience it differently. Fractured means by grind repeating same stuff over and over again, and I am really glad they have chosen this kind of approach for progression. However, I am a little bit concerned how much there will be pointless traveling especially if our storage possibilities are really limited. Some people can call that easily grind, to me, it is not, and I categorize it as walking simulator. However, it does not matter how people sees this concern, at the end the result is the same, time consuming and not fun activity.
I found this sentence in the second spotlight
You can earn some warehouse space to store your items in a village, but such space is not free – and even if you unlock it, what you deposit in the village stays in the village. As your character inventory on Fractured is quite limited, you’ll need wagons to move resources – which means animals to drag them, and a proper escort to see that your bounty doesn’t fall to unwanted hands. This is once more a wide topic though, which will be given further elaboration in future feature spotlights.
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@Sindariya said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Goemoe said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Sindariya Well I can not decide when I die so it is kind of hard to think all before hand..
Also if people can not store stuff outside of home and guild bank, it will make all activities far from home really annoying. You can basically play mostly in your own hoods.. That sounds kind of bad. I really need an answer from DS side. @Specter Actually I wonder all the time. The devs tell of removing the "grind" out of the game but add many tedious sounding things into it. After all, each player has a different understand of 'grinding' Some like leveling and quesing a lot. The advancement of the RPG char is the core of such games. Renaming the actions to do so, does not change the system.
Having to carry stuff around, though weight and space matter, might annoy quickling.
Having to explore to get Fractured XP, named knowledge points sound fun, but if you encounter difficult climate conditions large distances away from any access to your belongings might annoy quickly.
Having to reequip your char x times a day because your robbed and or killed many times a day might annoy quickly.
Trying to reach virtually unreachable areas in the game to up you skill, only because you need Tartarus as a beast or Arboreus as a demon will not feel great either.All this might quickly be viewed upon as grind. It is the risk vs. reward spiral which keep game like this interesting. Which is good. No game like this can work without features some people will name 'grind'
You have really valid points here. Grind can be defined few ways and players experience it differently. Fractured means by grind repeating same stuff over and over again, and I am really glad they have chosen this kind of approach for progression. However, I am a little bit concerned how much there will be pointless traveling especially if our storage possibilities are really limited. Some people can call that easily grind, to me, it is not, and I categorize it as walking simulator. However, it does not matter how people sees this concern, at the end the result is the same, time consuming and not fun activity.
I found this sentence in the second spotlight
You can earn some warehouse space to store your items in a village, but such space is not free – and even if you unlock it, what you deposit in the village stays in the village.Okay, this sounds right and how it should be. Good catch.
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@Roccandil said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
In Albion Online I even saw situations where refined materials and crafted gear pieces where multiple times cheaper than the resources (of that item). So it was impossible to make any profit with crafting or refining. So quality over quantity would be much better choise from economy and crafting point of view.
To an extent, that's true, but one mitigating factor is fame (experience): if you buy the raw materials, refine them yourself, and craft the items yourself, you get all the experience. In effect, by buying raw materials you're buying experience opportunity.
I suspect a lot of lower-tier items on the market are simply byproducts of grinding crafting. If I get an excellent or masterwork item, for instance, I'll probably sell it instead of breaking it down to study.
Also, since Albion has implemented F2P (as well as new portals in cities?), the economy appears to have shifted from what you describe. The royal cities in the T4 lands have extremely busy markets, and there are significant differentials in goods between them and Caerleon: you just have to risk running goods through red PvP zones to exploit them.
I've done a little exploring of black zones as well, and it's easy to get to them now from other royal cities (if you want to risk it). At the moment, at least, I don't see any reason to move my center of operations to Caerleon (and I'm looking forward to new functionality such as hideouts).
I agree that fame has some influence to prices, but still the markets should not be in so bad shape. And because there is that fame factor it can be considered as p2w mechanic or at least p2Advantage when you can buy refining and crafting progression with real money.
Some of us tried to convince devs that their last big changes just before launch were too risky and will lead to world-wide economic problems. They still took the risk and result were bad. Now they have finally made some improvements and people have meaning to live in different cities instead of Caerleon. That was really good change.
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@Sindariya said in Economy Balance:
*You can earn some warehouse space to store your items in a village, but such space is not free – and even if you unlock it, what you deposit in the village stays in the village.
Exactly. Basically the point is that players need to travel around looking for resources, and when they find a good spot, if there is a village nearby, they can temporarily pay for storage that they will use while farming nearby area.
While farming they would move back and forth and store what they farmed in that village for safe keeping (because village is relatively close, players can't keep huge amount of stuff in their bags, and keeping wagon just standing there in the woods is super risky) until they have collected enough.
When they have enough they would organize transport to where they really wish to take all that. This transport would include wagons and optional protection (player mercenaries, guild members, whatever options that will exist) at which point player closes down their "village storage account" and leaves with his caravan of goods somewhere else.
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@Gothix Temporary warehouse space and ending storage account? I could not find any info about this. Is this really a thing or more like presuming?
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@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Roccandil said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
In Albion Online I even saw situations where refined materials and crafted gear pieces where multiple times cheaper than the resources (of that item). So it was impossible to make any profit with crafting or refining. So quality over quantity would be much better choise from economy and crafting point of view.
To an extent, that's true, but one mitigating factor is fame (experience): if you buy the raw materials, refine them yourself, and craft the items yourself, you get all the experience. In effect, by buying raw materials you're buying experience opportunity.
I suspect a lot of lower-tier items on the market are simply byproducts of grinding crafting. If I get an excellent or masterwork item, for instance, I'll probably sell it instead of breaking it down to study.
Also, since Albion has implemented F2P (as well as new portals in cities?), the economy appears to have shifted from what you describe. The royal cities in the T4 lands have extremely busy markets, and there are significant differentials in goods between them and Caerleon: you just have to risk running goods through red PvP zones to exploit them.
I've done a little exploring of black zones as well, and it's easy to get to them now from other royal cities (if you want to risk it). At the moment, at least, I don't see any reason to move my center of operations to Caerleon (and I'm looking forward to new functionality such as hideouts).
I agree that fame has some influence to prices, but still the markets should not be in so bad shape. And because there is that fame factor it can be considered as p2w mechanic or at least p2Advantage when you can buy refining and crafting progression with real money.
While you can certainly power level by turning real money into silver, you're only going faster to the same goal. I think that's a legitimate tradeoff: some people have time to grind, but not money, and some people have money, but not time to grind.
If you remove the ability for real money to speed progression, then you're simply making the game 24/7-to-win instead.
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@Roccandil said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Roccandil said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
In Albion Online I even saw situations where refined materials and crafted gear pieces where multiple times cheaper than the resources (of that item). So it was impossible to make any profit with crafting or refining. So quality over quantity would be much better choise from economy and crafting point of view.
To an extent, that's true, but one mitigating factor is fame (experience): if you buy the raw materials, refine them yourself, and craft the items yourself, you get all the experience. In effect, by buying raw materials you're buying experience opportunity.
I suspect a lot of lower-tier items on the market are simply byproducts of grinding crafting. If I get an excellent or masterwork item, for instance, I'll probably sell it instead of breaking it down to study.
Also, since Albion has implemented F2P (as well as new portals in cities?), the economy appears to have shifted from what you describe. The royal cities in the T4 lands have extremely busy markets, and there are significant differentials in goods between them and Caerleon: you just have to risk running goods through red PvP zones to exploit them.
I've done a little exploring of black zones as well, and it's easy to get to them now from other royal cities (if you want to risk it). At the moment, at least, I don't see any reason to move my center of operations to Caerleon (and I'm looking forward to new functionality such as hideouts).
I agree that fame has some influence to prices, but still the markets should not be in so bad shape. And because there is that fame factor it can be considered as p2w mechanic or at least p2Advantage when you can buy refining and crafting progression with real money.
While you can certainly power level by turning real money into silver, you're only going faster to the same goal. I think that's a legitimate tradeoff: some people have time to grind, but not money, and some people have money, but not time to grind.
Even the goal is same, some people won't ever reach that goal, and some who eventually get there, then the other guy is already even further. Albion Online can be considered as p2w or p2advantage, denpending totally how people feels that. It is of course not so black and white, but Albion definitely sways somewhere in grey area what it comes to p2w, and I am now not talking only about this progression matter.
@Roccandil said in Economy Balance:
If you remove the ability for real money to speed progression, then you're simply making the game 24/7-to-win instead.
Yeah, that is exactly what gaming industry needs imo, equal content with no possibilities to buy advantages with real money.
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@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
Yeah, that is exactly what gaming industry needs imo, equal content with no possibilities to buy advantages with real money.
so long as there is trading between players, they'll exist 3rd party exchanges that'll allow someone to buy in game goods. (but this thread isn't about that).
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@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Gothix Temporary warehouse space and ending storage account? I could not find any info about this. Is this really a thing or more like presuming?
It's an educated guess. Since we heared that storage space will not be free of charge, it's reasonable to assume one will be able to rent it for a period of time and every rent expires if not payed.
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@Gothix said in Economy Balance:
@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Gothix Temporary warehouse space and ending storage account? I could not find any info about this. Is this really a thing or more like presuming?
It's an educated guess. Since we heared that storage space will not be free of charge, it's reasonable to assume one will be able to rent it for a period of time and every rent expires if not payed.
You are right, it can be rented, but it can also be bought.
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@Tuoni said in Economy Balance:
@Roccandil said in Economy Balance:
If you remove the ability for real money to speed progression, then you're simply making the game 24/7-to-win instead.
Yeah, that is exactly what gaming industry needs imo, equal content with no possibilities to buy advantages with real money.
I'm totally against that. That's what Atlas is like, and for me, it sucked. The game rewarded being online all the time: you couldn't take a break, or you'd simply log in to being dead and having all your stuff decayed or stolen (it just felt like someone coming behind you and deleting your savegames).
A well-designed MMO balances between people who have time and people who have money. That doesn't necessarily mean being able to buy an advantage with money, but at the very least, it -does- mean not being able to buy an advantage with time, either.
At the same time, however, development isn't free, and laborers are worthy of their hire.
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EDIT:
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@Roccandil
that sounds like a horrible game. all characters logged off shouldn't be in the game world.a well-designed game should never be designed around someone's ability to spend cash to progress.
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Game shouldn't be designed around spending cash to progress, but it would also be nice if it placed a reasonable cap on how much you can accomplish by being online per day/week, so it does not promote no life 24 hours per day gaming.
So:
- no P2W
- no NoLife2win as well
It would be nice if game was designed around progression by gameplay, but with some kind of a reasonable daily/weekly CAP placed on progression.
