Why can't Angels stay on Arboreus?

[Pwnstar]

@Eurav said in Elusive - Casual Beastman Guild:

@Pwnstar said in Elusive - Casual Beastman Guild:

Because different races have different racial bonuses and abilities. If you want the Beastmen ones, play them. If you want the Angel ones, play those.

Humans would be broken then. Having an immense advantage over the other races (and if they would then balance out Humans and Demons, would only lead to Beastmen being even more unnecessary).
You can´t just... make a race have a certain gameplay aspect, and then make another race which has the same gameplay aspect + another gameplay aspect and some more. Apart from role-play freaks everybody who is sane would choose a Human over a Beastmen then. It would make Humans too strong.

Why would that make humans too strong? They don't even get any racial bonuses, just the ability to use technology.

[Eurav]

Why Angels can´t stay on Arboreus? -> we don´t know yet wether they can permanently stay on Arboreus or not

Why letting Humans permanently stay on Arboreus would make them too strong?

I guess I can type my thoughts again, but would be cool to hear the input of other people as well, since maybe I am thinking wrong

Let´s start with the aspect of the Playstyles. Beastmen are for people who want to be able to play safe PvE, and maybe if they get sick of that try to get evil, but they have to go to Syndesia for that because according to Feature Spotlight #6, Beastmen are not allowed to choose any Alignment other than Good on Arboreus. The reasons for Arboreus being a safe place are:

-> The more evil a character is, the less time it can stay on Arboreus (Good Alignment - Neutral Elignment).
-> Characters with Evil Alignment get rejectet by the Planet, get a huge debuff, the normally neutral monsters start atting you and you can only stay for half an hour.
-> ~75% of Arboreus is a safe zone where people without Good Alignment can´t enter

Now, for a beastmen to get into PvP and getting "evil", takes a lot of effort, time and there is no going back. So for your character it is a one time ticket. Once you are an abomination... have fun entering Arboreus, because you get treated like a player with Alignment Evil.

So, as we can see, Beastmen are for PvE lovers. The most likely only PvP for them could be the rare occurance of an invader on the planet, or traveling to Syndesia for whatever reason.

Humans are meant for a PvX playstyle. While having PvE, PvP also is just as much a possbility. Syndesia will most likely be the hotspot of interracial conflict. The humans living there, most likely being in conflicts with themselves, the demons raiding them and beastmen trying to turn into abominations. While having PvE on the planet Syndesia, it is in no way safe like on Arboreus. The only possibly safe places are towns with guards, which are set to attack players with Alignment Evil when spotting them. So on Syndesia, every action you take, comes with a certain risk.
Additionally to that, there is also the Eclipse, in which demons are free to roam the lands of Syndesia. For the other races it is also easier to travel to Syndesia, then the other planets.

As for the racial bonuses of Humans, they get more Attribute points than the other races, making them more flexible in their playstyles ("classes"). On the topic of technology we don´t really have any information yet, how much influence this will have, but I think only Humans are able to use it, so other races buying it will probably not be a thing.
The only time such a technology is mentions is in the lore (or short story) of a town on Syndesia in the Feature Spotlight #1.

So, going with "Humans don´t really have a racial advantage, so why play them, when doing anything on Syndesia comes with a risk?". Humans are the race with the most diversity on how you can play them, you can go back and forth between being Good / Evil several times, which other races can´t do. Of course it will take some time, but the possibility exists. If another race wants to change their playstyle, they can never go back.

I am trying to find a good reasoning to why I think letting Humans permanently stay on Arboreus would be bad for the playstyles, but all I can really think of that a Human would gain from it would be a "Safe Zone". A Human player would then be able to freely choose if he wants to live on Syndesia or on Arborues (which becomes possible, when you allow them to stay on Arboreus an unlimited of time). They could then also join a beastmen guild. So if a Human player get´s into a big conflict, or just does not want to live with the risks of living on Syndesia anymore, he could go ahead and go live on Arborues. He could live like a Beastmen, while also having the advantage of the technology. And that´s where the problem lies... I don´t think it is good for the game, that a race can have the same playstyle as another race, since they "made" the races, to distinct between different playstyles.

Another thing I want to touch on is the topic of ressources. The three planets will have different rare materials, so Syndesia will most likely also become the place for interracial trade (in case this even will be a thing), since traveling to Syndesia for a Beastmen / Demon is far easier, then traveling to Tartaros / Arboreus. Now, a Human with a Good Alignment is able to stay a decent amount of time on Arboreus, so they have some access to the rare materials of Arboreus, but it still comes with a risk. Giving them free access to Arboreus just gives them free access to the materials of two planates, which another race does not have, and thus giving them an advantage in this area as well.

I like to see it as, anything you do with a Human does have / has to have a certain risk, because Humans have it the easiest to access both other Planets and have "free" access to all playstyles. The risk I am talking about is of course, most of the time, getting killed by another player, regardless of race. If you want to play without the risk of PvP, play a Beastmen. If you are okay with some risk, play a Human and if you only want to PvP anyways, play a Demon.
When giving Humans the possbility of permanently staying on Arboreus, you take away the uniqueness of the Beastmen as the safe PvE playstle.

Another thing this does is... if you allow a race to permanently stay on two planets, they then also have two Houses (one on each Planet) which gives them two bases of operation. Don´t really think that would be that big of a deal, just something to think about as well

Why I think that for Angels it would not pose a problem to be able to stay on Arboreus forever?
Well we don´t know yet wether they can or not, but not everyone can just "become" an Angel. It takes a lof of time and hard work. I don´t mind that a few people who invest a lot of time and hard work possibly get an advantage over other players.

[Gothix]

Everything is still subject to change and further tweaking.

For now general idea is that Beast men and Demons get some racial bonuses, while humans get the more attribute points and use of technology (which will come with own bonuses) to offset for that.

Any racial transformation will come with some loss and some gain, but imho everyone should in the end be balanced, just the play style will be a bit different.

[EvolGrinZ]

Humans can become a Lich. Good enough reason to play a human for me

[Pwnstar]

@Gothix said in Why can't Angels stay on Arboreus?:

the play style will be a bit different.

That was my point to Eurav. I would think the difference between Beastman, Human and Angel for PvE would just be cosmetic look and racial bonuses. Forcing Angels and Humans to leave Arboreus after a few hours makes it easier for demons to hunt them down on Syndesia.

[Eurav]

@Pwnstar said in Why can't Angels stay on Arboreus?:

That was my point to Eurav. I would think the difference between Beastman, Human and Angel for PvE would just be cosmetic look and racial bonuses. Forcing Angels and Humans to leave Arboreus after a few hours makes it easier for demons to hunt them down on Syndesia.

Feature Spotlight #1 says:

The races are supposed to be significantly different in their playstlye. Humans are supposed to be far easier to hunt than Beastmen.

In my eyes this is a design choice Dynamight made, and what they will try to balance around. They want races to have significant differences in gameplay, and not just a difference in cosmetic look and racial bonuses. Every race has something unique to it.

Do you think "that´s bad"?

Well I guess you said

so I guess you think so

But, when you choose to play a Human, your are not a pure PvE player. Well you can play a good aligned Human and try to play a PvE playstyle, but you will still have the risks of being a Human. If you want to be a safe PvE player you have to play a beastmen.
But that is what Dynamight wants to achieve with the races... you pick the gameplay "style" you want play and choose the best race for that. And not "does not really matter what race you pick, the gameplay will hardy change".

[Tuoni]

I understand the philosophy behind that only Beastmen can live permanently in Arboreus. It simply protects PvE minded players to encounter PvP activity as less as possible. The best way to do this is keep PvP minded players out and only as short time visitors. I guess this is also good solution from resource point of view.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but these angel, lich, abomination forms are permanent? Are their alignments also permanent?

[Pwnstar]

You become a Lich, Angel or Abomination because of your alignment, so it makes sense that you lose the form if you lose alignment.

[Meiki]

This post is deleted!

[Tuoni]

Okay so if Angel can turn to neutral, then it makes sense, that he/she cant live permanently in Arboreus..

..BUT, if Angel is a permanent form it actually means that this person has left all evilness behind and found redemption. So, what if Angel can't change his/her alignment to anything other than lawful when visiting or living on Arboreus. That way Angel won't be a threat to other players and has earned permanent place in Arboreus. Could this work?

[Eurav]

@Tuoni Angels are locked to Good Alignment anyways, which is why the Devs are considering to allow Angels to stay on Arboreus forever. It does make sense, but there are some points one could make against allowing this.
As far as it currently stands... the devs don´t know yet what they want to do (at least that is my current state of information on this), but I think it is pretty likely that they will allow Angels to stay on Arboreus forever.

[Pwnstar]

Oh, so it's still up in the air? I like that.

[FibS]

The simplest approach, assuming they design the game architecture to facilitate this, is for Abominations to be treated like Demons in any and all ways except for the ability to go Good, while Angels are treated like Beastmen in any and all ways except for the ability to go Evil.

Therefore, Abominations should be largely confined to Tartarus, and Angels should be allowed on Arboreus and harmed when visiting Tartarus.

[Tuoni]

Okay lets presume Angels gets permanent access to Arboreus and Abominations to Tartaros, and Angels are threated as Beastmen and Abominations as Demons. But what happens to special abilities now when they have changed sides?

[Meiki]

This post is deleted!

[Tuoni]

@Meiki said in Why can't Angels stay on Arboreus?:

@Tuoni They will most probably have their own. So in game terms Angels will be just a different race(s) of beastfolk and abominations just different types of demons.

I think this would be the best solution and it would actually make them unique as well.

[Pwnstar]

@Meiki said in Why can't Angels stay on Arboreus?:

@Tuoni They will most probably have their own. So in game terms Angels will be just a different race(s) of beastfolk and abominations just different types of demons.

Well said.