Economy essentials


  • TF#5 - LEGATE

    While I'll probably bother people with how many threads I create, here's an important one.

    What are the sources of ingame currency, and what are the mechanics to remove said currency from the game?
    As many players know, if games would not have a currency removal systems through repair bills, various taxes, transportation/trading fees, etc. then currency becomes worthless and every tiny piece of equipment will cost alot, which may cause some trouble for new players in the future.

    What are the mechanics to remove excessive items from the game?
    And if there would be no item removal through trashing on death, destroying upon unsuccessful quality increase, etc., then item prices would deflate, which will make everything crafting-related very unprofitable and unrewarding.

    What's the motivation for solo players to kill mobs or mine?
    If people are playing in a group, it's understandable that they can go mine together and probably repel attacks conducted on them, however if you're a solo player, with current mechanics, where, as it seems, player will need to pull his cart around with him, he'll be very vulnerable to such attacks, and let's be realistic - such attacks will take place (I'll make sure). So it seems like mining is not an option.
    And if solo player travels across the world and meets some mobs - why would he kill them if he can't carry resources around (as he's probably not carrying his cart around with him), and if they don't give anything of a value? Maybe they drop something like enchantments, gemstones, whatever else what may be expensive enough to bother and easily carriable in player's inventory?

    Is currency stored locally or globally?
    I wonder if currency is magically stored in a fantasy bank upon obtaining, or if players will have to carry the needed amount with them at all times.
    For example, in Albion Online chest hunting was a thing. One chest could give about 40k currency, while my character's full gear set was around 10k. I was farming in black zones (free pvp with no restrictions), so like everyone else there I was in constant danger, and even tho I almost didn't die, Albion's global currency storage allowed me to get profit asap, without any need to get out of black zones alive, which is a major part of Albion as a sandbox pvp (Sigh) game. As Fractured features the same idea where you can be killed any moment for your loot (unless you're playing as a furry), it's possible that with global currency storage getting currency straight from humanoid mobs (I believe humanoid mobs with currency drops are planned) will overshadow other ways of farming that includes potentially dangerious transporting of farmed goods.

    Structures indestructability and low resource requirement
    Another thing that bothers me, is that it's been said that players' structures can't be destroyed. Another thing that adds more concern - low resourse requirements because of the games' "no grinding" philosophy.
    It may cause first players in the game to flood planets with their structures, which are indestructable and eternal, leaving no place for newcomers' structures, influencing income of new players (and all the moni they bring) in a bad way.
    Is there some kind of amortization expenses mechanic, or something? That would make players spend resourses gradually over time to keep their structures in place, preventing them from crumbling and freeing the land plot for others to build.

    NPC vendors' place in the game
    As NPC vendors will probably take place, atleast as a currency sink, what will they be able to offer? What would be their purpose?


  • TF#8 - GENERAL AMBASSADOR

    One thing I can say for sure, is there are better ways of item removal than RNG quality upgrade mechanics. Even if it is just wear and tear requiring skilled crafters to fix things (rather than a tiny bit of coin to an NPC) it works. In fact, it gives craft focused people another skillset that is in demand, and usually needs less resources for their goals. Fixing can still eventually leave items with very low maximum durability in such a system, which means after a while a new one is still needed. However, RNG upgrade stuff is not only rather annoying, but leaves people feeling like they have to gamble repeatedly until they 'win' to even compete. Which in reality means most people don't bother.

    Solo players will want the loot, but mining will likely be something that is a group activity on any world with PvP at all. I'm expecting that they will have a variety of other activities that would be viable for trade to obtain such goods from a town.

    I'm hoping currency will be local, although hopefully not over-bearing to carry for trade. Maybe there will be some sort of bank note system, where only specific people can cash at towns with a bank building? It would be a reasonable safeguard to see from Humans, although the other worlds might not have any such thing. Of course, there might also then be some black market for such things in particularly evil places...

    I believe they mean player structures with invulnerability will be limited to an area around their chosen home, and only one such home allowed (maybe one out and about, but as many homes in towns as towns that are willing to assign you a home). Maybe I'm wrong though. It does make sense to limit personal spots like that, and it is effective at keeping the clutter down. As to maintenance, that's why carpenter NPC contracts exist. There is a sort of gold sink there, although how many might be needed, and how much they cost, is yet to really be seen (1 might only be able to manage a pretty small house, for example, leaving people wanting more if they want more cool stuff).

    I'm expecting NPC vendors to sell some things, maybe in limited amounts at random off a table of goods. More important will likely be hirelings. For example, we know about guards and carpenters already. I'm expecting they may expand upon that idea.


  • TF#5 - LEGATE

    Sure quality upgrade was just an example to show what I'm talking about. The flow of game economy was not discussed yet it seems, and I couldn't find what devs' ideas on this topic.

    An approach to gradually destroy your gear is a bad way to go I think, since it's a free loot game, player that managed to not to lose his gear for a long time should be if not rewarded, then atleast not punished for this.

    And talking about player stuctures, from what I've seen so far, people may just flood the server at release, and whoever is more experienced from alpha/beta, whoever has more time at the exact moment can just rush to gather some wood, let's say, and build himself an indestructable home, essentially grabbing all the avaliable land. What exactly prevents them from doing this? So far, I don't see anything.

    Another thing that I'm kinda afraid of at this point, is that developers tend to underestimate players. Content that is thought to be defeated in 1 year can possibly be beat in 1 week, I saw that in many, many projects. So i think those who're more competitive will just bolt into the world and grab everything right from the start. Nothing bad with this, but there is no way to free a patch of land that's taken it seems.

    From what I've seen on the alpha 1 map, it's pretty big, and the planet is going to be approximately 4 times bigger, plus two other planets about the same size, but still thinking that there will be enough space for everyone's structures is pessimistic, given that not every single millimeter of the map will be possible to build on.

    Developers stated that they can change maps size according to amount of people playing, but it seems that usual flow of players, most of those won't be in the game 24/7, will create a situation that map will need to be big enough to contain enough free land for everyone, while in the same time with such a size of the map it will be hard to actually find other players in the world outside of towns and couple of other well known points of interest, which may create boring gameplay (kind of like in Albion again), when you can farm for hours while being completely safe because of no potential threats like gankers in your area, and boring gameplay for gankers where you roam kilometers of land for hours before you can meet a target.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    Gear has to degrade even though it can be looted. Reason is there is a whole planet with 80% no PvP and they need to replace their gear.

    I’ll agree that gear should be repaired but at some point it should stop being repaired.



  • @dcccxix said in Economy essentials:

    What are the mechanics to remove excessive items from the game?

    Item durability is already confirmed, and gear on a corpse will eventually disappear. With how limited inventory is, and weight restrictions, I imagine most gear won't be worth looting and will just exit the economy when the corpse expires.

    What's the motivation for solo players to kill mobs or mine?

    There will likely be areas that are safer than others to gather resources (like a mine close to a good aligned town) that will allow solo players to get their resource grind in, but there will always be a risk. This is an MMO and some things will naturally encourage grouping up with others which isn't a bad thing. I personally find the thought that I can be attacked while ferrying resources exciting (keeping in mind you can drop whatever you're carrying and fight back). Without the risk of pvp, resource gathering would be boring.

    Is currency stored locally or globally?

    I don't think this has been explicitly stated anywhere, but I believe local currency aligns more with the design of the game and is what I'm expecting.

    Is there some kind of amortization expenses mechanic, or something? That would make players spend resourses gradually over time to keep their structures in place, preventing them from crumbling and freeing the land plot for others to build.

    Buildings require maintenance and will degrade over time. Eventually plots will turn to ruin and can be claimed by someone else. You're limited to 1 plot per planet per account so you won't have individuals grabbing up all the land and then doing nothing with it.


  • TF#5 - LEGATE

    @target durability is interesting, but it can be implemented in various ways. As a currency, material, or item sink. Inventory being limited is a good thing to mention, I didn't think about inventory size as an item sink mechanic, really, players may drop some items just like they do in hack'n'slash type of games.

    Talking about safer areas to gather resources, there was a problem in Albion for example (I will refer to Albion often, because it's similar in some aspects and offer little to no vertical progression), where as a solo player you could only gather solo, and do nothing else. Well, you could, like I did, but the amount of options is extremely limited, in contrast with group activity. I get it that MMORPGs must reward group activity, but they may also reward individual skill, if solo player has some, and give some gameplay options for players who're limited in time so they can't bind themselves to a guild and have a stable group play experience. Sometimes you just want to log in for an hour and have some good time without bothering anyone.

    I'm not trying to advocate and ask for any carebearish mechanics (Babilis forbid!), but in this case, were you will have to gather resources only in "safe" zones, solo players, PvP and PvE/gathering alike, might be cut off big parts of the map, because they won't have a way to travel far and have a chance to bring anything back. Which will cause locations closer to town to turn into a clusterf?k, and faraway locations taken over by big guilds and alliances. Nothing bad about that at the first sight, but this way "safe" zones will have bigger concentration of players not for a good reason, but just because of lack of motivation to move further from those zones apart from the knowledge system mechanics, which, let's be honest, won't motivate people forever.

    Maybe if gathering some herbs, talismans, something compact like that, wouldn't require a cart, but maybe a small bag to carry around as something reserving a part of your inventory, it'd solve the problem.

    And one more line for better understanding - I'd go to maps overrun by big and hostile guilds to gather said herbs, because I'll have less competition because of the risk involved, and I'm ready to risk, but I wouldn't go there if that would require me carrying a cart around, which will guarantee loss of everything gathered, unless I'm just lucky, regardless of my skill.

    And if building will really degrade fast and require let's say weekly maintenance, then it seems good plot limit is good aswell.

    Thanks for your answers m8, seems like I've missed some valuable info.



  • @dcccxix said in Economy essentials:

    as a solo player you could only gather solo, and do nothing else ... Sometimes you just want to log in for an hour and have some good time without bothering anyone.

    Exploration, filling out your bestiary, acquiring crafting recipes, discovering skills and completing their tasks are the primary drivers of personal progression, and you can do most of it solo. Even if you get killed, you won't lose progress on those things.

    Nothing bad about that at the first sight, but this way "safe" zones will have bigger concentration of players not for a good reason, but just because of lack of motivation to move further from those zones apart from the knowledge system mechanics, which, let's be honest, won't motivate people forever

    If you're worried about not enough for solo players to do, I'm not sure focusing on the resource gathering part of the game is the way to go. Resource gathering influences the global economy of the game. A solo player mining some ores doesn't just affect them; it affects the person who comes after them who was looking to mine those ores (resources take time to respawn so locations can only sustain a limited number of players) and it affects the person who is selling those ores. It makes sense to me that other players should be able to use force to influence solo players who are affecting them economically.

    Maybe if gathering some herbs, talismans, something compact like that, wouldn't require a cart, but maybe a small bag to carry around as something reserving a part of your inventory, it'd solve the problem.

    In one of the Q&As it was mentioned that small resources like gems and herbs will fit in your inventory. Basically anything that makes sense to fit in say, a backpack, will fit in your inventory. Anything that would be too big to realistically fit more than one in a backpack will have to be carried.


  • TF#5 - LEGATE

    @target said in Economy essentials:

    Exploration, filling out your bestiary, acquiring crafting recipes, discovering skills and completing their tasks are the primary drivers of personal progression, and you can do most of it solo. Even if you get killed, you won't lose progress on those things.

    I got that, yes. It can motivate me personally, as I love making builds. But let's assume there is a player who've got all the abilities he wanted. After that, what's his motivation? That's what I'm talking about. And eventually, every player will get everything he wants. Game won't survive on this alone, making those goal final would be a mistake, since those objectives are depletable.

    @target said in Economy essentials:

    If you're worried about not enough for solo players to do, I'm not sure focusing on the resource gathering part of the game is the way to go. Resource gathering influences the global economy of the game. A solo player mining some ores doesn't just affect them; it affects the person who comes after them who was looking to mine those ores (resources take time to respawn so locations can only sustain a limited number of players) and it affects the person who is selling those ores. It makes sense to me that other players should be able to use force to influence solo players who are affecting them economically.

    True, and it should be the case the other way around. Everything should be interconnected. But if gathering resources is is a bad way to go, then what would be the good way? Rare reagent drops, fittable into inventory? Some kind of temporary buffs?

    @target said in Economy essentials:

    In one of the Q&As it was mentioned that small resources like gems and herbs will fit in your inventory. Basically anything that makes sense to fit in say, a backpack, will fit in your inventory. Anything that would be too big to realistically fit more than one in a backpack will have to be carried.

    That's another good piece of info, so there will be motivation to go to faraway locations.



  • @dcccxix said in Economy essentials:

    I got that, yes. It can motivate me personally, as I love making builds. But let's assume there is a player who've got all the abilities he wanted. After that, what's his motivation?

    Presumably they would have made friends along the way and would eventually be a part of a community and not necessarily have to play solo anymore. Once you've completed your personal progression you either play for PvP, find a role that you enjoy, or pursue a personal goal. There are roles within a guild that you can do without much interaction with other players like being a cook or farmer. This is a sandbox, you have to find your own fun within the game's systems, and with Fractured being an MMO, most systems will have social aspects.

    But if gathering resources is is a bad way to go, then what would be the good way?

    You would advocate for expansions of existing systems that aren't necessarily tied to social aspects of the game (like the knowledge system) or for more features that are solo friendly (like 1v1 arena tournaments). Gathering major resources is inherently not solo friendly, and, in my opinion, that's okay.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    Another good way is to make gear repairable, but each time you want to repair it, it will require more resources up to a point where making/buying a new one will be cheaper than repairing.


  • TF#5 - LEGATE

    @target said in Economy essentials:

    This is a sandbox, you have to find your own fun within the game's systems, and with Fractured being an MMO, most systems will have social aspects.
    Agreed, but sandbox must be full of sand.

    @target said in Economy essentials:

    You would advocate for expansions of existing systems that aren't necessarily tied to social aspects of the game (like the knowledge system) or for more features that are solo friendly (like 1v1 arena tournaments). Gathering major resources is inherently not solo friendly, and, in my opinion, that's okay.
    IMO everything instances (if you mean instanced arena tournaments), has no place in such games. And yeah, gathering alot of resources should be not solo friendly, but there should be the way for players to be financially independent solo.
    Of course it would be nice to tie resourse gathering rate to player's skill and organization (if we're talking about a group of players), but it's a different topic.



  • @dcccxix said in Economy essentials:

    IMO everything instances (if you mean instanced arena tournaments), has no place in such games. And yeah, gathering alot of resources should be not solo friendly, but there should be the way for players to be financially independent solo.

    I didn't mean instanced arenas (arenas were confirmed in an Q&A, no idea if they're instanced or not). I used 1v1 tournaments as an example of a system that could be put in place that would be something that solo players could partake in that could potentially be lucrative. Other systems that solo players can use to make money: farming, enchanting, and crafting (leatherworking, metalworking, carpentry, tanning, tailoring, bowyery, cooking, alchemy, pottery, jewelcrafting).


  • TF#5 - LEGATE

    @target said in Economy essentials:

    Other systems that solo players can use to make money: farming, enchanting, and crafting (leatherworking, metalworking, carpentry, tanning, tailoring, bowyery, cooking, alchemy, pottery, jewelcrafting).

    If it's literally farming, then all of the activies above don't motivate player to even leave the town where he can buy materials, and don't play well with the whole exploration concept of the game.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @dcccxix
    i'd like to see recipes or improvements to recipes be based on knowledge and exploration. demons/beastkin visiting the human planet could be a way to do this.


 

Copyright © 2018 Dynamight Studios Srl | Fractured