Character Creation: ideal build analysis, and discussion of initial attribute builds


    (looked around, didn't see anything about initial builds in the past 6 months, sooo)

    We've known for a while how the attributes are going to work (ie, it's all at character creation, using 'x' points, plus potentially getting 2 more in each stat via a skill in that stat's tree) - I want to do a bit of an analysis, and see if anyone has picked their first stat build? (yes, we've had a "what's your first build" thread, but no one has really talked about how they are going to build towards it)

    Further, we know each stat gives a big bonus for hitting 20 - a big damage buff, improved regeneration in hp or mp, big accuracy and evasion buffs, and a large luck bonus.

    there are some things to consider - Humans at 120 points, and the others have 100, but with one stat being "cheaper" - encouraging the use of that stat (plus some other non-stat bonuses, because the cheaper stat doesn't quite cover things).

    All stats start at 6, and maxes vary by species (but centered on 18), with 10 being the expected average. Stats increase asynchronously - there's a table over here.

    30 points get you to 18 (only 18 for the specialty stat for non-humans), and 10 (6) will get you to 10.

    Finally, it is specifically mentioned that having less than 10 Int will hurt everyone due to a penalty gaining Knowledge points (you'll get there eventually, but it is a problem)

    So, what does that all mean?

    Human ideals are fairly easy
    4 18's, 2 6's - min/max ideal
    3 18's, 3 10's - nothing wrong, nice balance
    3 18's, 1 15, 1 10, and 1 6 - the strongest options if you want to start without a penalty to knowledge (AND Intelligence isn't one of your 18's)
    1 18, 5 14 - solid jack of all trades with one bonus

    Less ideal, but may fit for a unique build
    3 18's, 2 11's, 1 8 - use the 8 on Int, gain the +2 on the int stat tree to avoid the penalty
    3, 18's, 1 12, 1 10, 1 8 - for the same reason above
    6 15's - jack of all trades, master of none, (none of the bonus' are possible)
    2 18s, 2 13s, 2 12- weaker jack with 2 bonuses .

    Honestly, I can think of some "class" that would favor one of these options for some build, except the 6 15's. I'm sure someone would like it, but I can't see who, especially when 1 18, 5 14's are available. What do you all think?

    Off the top of my head, a focused wizard probably favors the min/max ideal, dump stat'ing Strength and either dexterity, or constitution (probably dex - they need some carrying capacity, and Constitution gives that). A focused fighter might do the same, dump stat'ing Charisma and Intelligence, but I imagine that they'd complain about the slow growth constantly XD A more reasonable build is probably the mixed option, with the 10 on int, 6 in cha, and the 15 set to their least useful of the 4 remaining stats - an archer, for example, would use 15 con, while a tank might go 15 str. Alternatively, the 18-10 is a good dedicated character who isn't useless outside their specialty, and might see some play in that respect. However, the 1 18, 5 14 jack of all trades might be the most useful from that angle - 18 Int, and then use spell boosting and re-skill to bolster your decent stats and play any role you want. The rest are "okay," in my opinion, but it's hard to think of why someone would favor them over those 4, unless they are playing to a very specific sort of character. The Intelligence 8 (+2 from the tree) seem like a poor choice for minor gains in return for having to go pretty high into a stat tree you aren't really using to avoid slow growth/frustration.


  • I've been leaning towards an illusion based crowd control warrior vampire with a stat distribution of: 15 str, 14 dex, 10 int, 14 con, 10 per, 20 cha. I might swap dex and int depending on how mana intensive the build is, but the evasion and lower cooldown on mobility skills from dex sound nice.

    That said, my first character will likely be rerolled once I figure the game out. I might even have to give up on what I envision my character to be since we don't know what skills are in the game, which skills scale with which stats, or the extent each skill scales with each stat. We don't even know the full impact stats will have on different aspects of the game.


    The other races are much more complicated.

    To start with, they run an 8 point deficit to humans in the best case scenario - humans can do 4 18's, while the non-humans flat out can't (it would cost 108 points, and that's if one of those 4 is the "favored" stat). Using their race powers helps with that problem, to some extent, but you need to be using a build that benefits from it - a blood demon that doesn't do damage can't get buffs, so their racial power goes to waste when they are a pure support/healer, for example (As I understand it, based on what's been written about their powers).

    Further, there is the matter of them having variable stat limits. A Hellfire can't put an 18 into Perception, so a decent build might involve 2 18's (including their favored stat), 2 16's, an 8, and a 6, just because the build they are aiming for doesn't really need a dex 18, and they'd rather make sure that they get no penalty in knowledge growth. Conversely, a Hellfire that maxes out their "best" stats (21 Str and Con), might round it out with a 14, 10, 8, and 6, again using the +2 int skill to keep their growth up.

    Which is a point in itself. While humans generally can come by a 10 to slot in intelligence (for a non-mage) pretty easily, the non-humans are going to look at that 8(+2) strategy a lot harder, just because that's 2 points they can spend elsewhere at the start, and the +2 can be re-spent later as needed - the economy is different enough that it becomes "a thing."

    Of special note are the Shadow and the Erwydan - maxing out their 3 good stats leaves them with no points left - their other 3 stats are all 6's. this locks these characters into being rogue/archers and generalist mages, respectively - they are QUITE good at those roles, but there are really sharp limits in their utility outside of them - neither can take a hit, for example.

    Even still, here are some general point distributions.
    3 18's (including favored stat), 11, 10, 6 - good focus, but...
    2 18's (ifs), 2 16, 1 8, 1 6 -this one probably works better in that regard
    2 18's (ifs), 1 15, 1 13, 1 10, 1 8 - decent build, +2 int skill for growth
    1 18 (ifs), 4 14, 1 10 - same general idea as the best human jack of all trades
    1 18 (ifs), 1 14, 4 13 - the other version of JoaT. both should work "okay"

    and here are a couple playing up the 21 favored stat

    1 21, 1 18, 1 16, 2 10, 6 - a superior focused build, in my opinion.
    1 21, 2 16, 2 10, 8 - not so good, but it gets into that +2 int skill range
    1 21, 3 13, 2 12 - Really, only Blood and Erwydan can make this work well - super int spell boosting to make up for mediocre stats everywhere else

    OR a 20 in the favored stat (which still get you that bonus to start, so, not bad)

    1 20, 1 18, 1 15, 2 10, 8 - probably better than either of the 21 versions, since it puts the character in line with that second bonus and get's you in range for that +2 int skill.

    and that's about it, really. the double 21 on the Hellfire example is pretty much the best way to play raising anything other than your favored stat past 18 - it's effectively too expensive to have many variant options. You can get a second 8 if you have a 21 and a 20, instead of 2 21...but there's only 1 stat that benefits from being 8, so...and there isn't a notable benefit to having a 19, as such, so you're better off spending those 4 points elsewhere. If you disagree, let me know!

    Anyway, as mentioned, Erwydra and Blood are the best options for going for a spell-boosted jack of all trades, in my opinion, since they naturally get enough intelligence to make up for the notable lower stat spread everywhere else. Shadow might be able to manage it, but pulling an 18 outside of their favored stat is painful enough that the spread won't be good - better to go for a focus build that gets supplemented with spell boosting.

    Max'ing the best stats in each race is a build strategy (for everyone other than Chadra and Unouadra; again, 19 scores don't seem to have a point), but it leads to very limited options, in my opinion - Shadow, Erwydra, and Blood all fail to have enough Con if you play to their strengths, and Cheendra and Hellfire, at their "best," belong nowhere else. Fun to play, and unrivaled their roles, but they have trouble being anything "more" than those roles.

    in the end, playing to the powers of the species makes for a better build direction, I think, using either the 20 build spread, or the 2 18, 15, 13, 10, 8 to focus on the races nature in some fashion. Chadra, Udodra, Blood, and Shadow have the most "neutral" bonuses, so they'll work better in these spreads for the widest number of options (Hellfire need to be hit to get their bonus, which excludes them from range work, Nheedra are gifted towards melee in a different way). Erwydra could, in theory, play in melee as a rouge, but a lot of it depends on properly using their hart form - a problem if a battle goes to long, or occurs too often; it would take exceptional skill, in my opinion.


    wow that was indeed lengthy. i have to admit. i dont quite get a lot of what you say but im wondering why do you only reach 18 instead of 20 and just get minimal of other attributes you dont want to focus on?


    @codetsilon prometheus said in Race and Attribute Points:

    @morridin said in Race and Attribute Points:
    So humans having no affinity are stuck at the general cap of 18 in all their attributes and thus miss out on getting any of the special bonuses for getting an attribute to 20? Or are there equipment or consumables that can raise attributes? What about buffs or curses? Can they, semi-permanently, effect attributes?

    Very nice question - I shall add the answer to the spotlight itself.

    All the things you've mentioned can raise attributes, but to get the level 20 bonus, you need a Natural Score of 20. The Natural Score is determined by your base score, plus the points coming from talents. Because yes, each branch of the Talent Tree is linked to an attribute, and always contains talents that when assigned grant a max of +2 in that attribute.

    So yes, humans can get to 20 too! 🙂

    prometheus said in Race and Attribute Points:

    @jetah said in Race and Attribute Points:
    will stats have a cap?
    If 50 (random number) is the cap then we can find different routes to it. otherwise we'll just stack 1 or 2 stats for the most benefit.

    The cap on the final value of each attribute is 25 - even if you try stacking buffs from spells, potions and all, you can't get above that :slight_smile:

    And on a side note, even if the cap wasn't there, trust me that it'd be really hard to see characters with 25+ on an attribute. If you have a natural score (basic points + talents) of 20, it's already very unlikely you can reach 25 with temporary bonuses like the aforementioned spells and potions.

    I also when creating your guide, it's not a lot of confused, because I had to read the attributes in humans and beastmen

    muker said in Character Creation: ideal build analysis, and discussion of initial attribute builds:


    Trust me, you're not the first😉


    i have a question about points distribution.
    when you use point on your affinity (+3 bonus) you need to spend 18 points (18+3 = 21 point on your affinity stat) or 27 points ?
    and what happen if you don’t spend point on a stat with a malus ? that stay at 6 or not ?


    @muker I am ashamed to say that I don't read Russian naturally. Whoever wrote that did a brilliant job - even google translate could understand it! that one touches on some of the same things I'm interested in - which builds benefit from having a 20 versus a 21 (and are 19s ever worth it? 😏 ), but it didn't really go into the harder mechanics, or the general build decision trees. of course, doing so on the scant information we have isn't actually plausible - we can't say "1 more point of strength would be better than one more point of Perception because [x]" - but we can at least work out some rough ideas about how to construct things, based on the information at hand. The 4 18's, 2 6's being applicable to both a fighter and a mage build is an example - as is the drawback the fighter suffers in that format, if they ignore Intelligence in favor of their main job. Target's response is very much in line for what I was hoping to see - "I'm trying to do [x], using the these numbers"

    I really want to see what everyone is thinking!


    @target That's what I came to hear! that's pretty cool - though, you over spent by 2 points. But, seriously, I can totally see that - "look into my eyes! you cannot look away, you cannot move! all you can do" - dagger sinks home "is die!" cue mad laughter XD it's some good stuff!


    this definitely needs more time to ponder about. atm i managed to make it good for 2-3 attributes but the other attributes are garbage xD

  • @therippyone

    I don't see where I over spent. 20+18+10+18+10+24=100


    @suruq with affinity (+3) to reach lvl 18, you'll need to use 18 points instead of 30 points


    @target nope. based on my calculations you're not off as well xD


    @suruq Affinity is a base reduction in point cost to buy that particular stat up. The +3 is how much above base line stats you can push that stat - all stats have a base maximum of 18, so a +3 means you can push that stat to 21.

    As to the other - every stat starts at 6, and costs nothing at that level. going to "7" requires you to spend 3 character creation points (of which you start with 120, or 100, based on race) - UNLESS it's your Affinity stat - then going to "7" only costs 2. More broadly, it takes 30 character points to push a stat from 6 to 18 UNLESS it's the affinity stat; then, it only takes 18 - effectively saving you 12 points, or, in more concrete terms, enough points to push a "6" stat to a "10" with some to spare - very useful stuff.

    If you don't buy up a stat, you will start the game with a 6 in that stat - the malus is calculated in terms of having a 6. Most calculations assume "10" as "normal" - having neither malus or benefit. while I can't say how it will work exactly, think of having a 6 in the same ways as having a 40% failure rate attached to anything you do with that stat. If this skill does 10 damage normally, it only does 6 for you, and it only lasts 60% as long, or just flat out fails to work 40% of the time. A 6 in a stat makes things MUCH harder on you.


    @codetsilon well, 18 is the basic max for all stats in humans - can't buy them higher. to get to 20, humans need to get the bonus 2 points out of each stat's skill tree (or use a potion or something for a temporary boost). On the non-human side, the sad truth is that a 20/21, even in your Affinity stat, is actually really expensive, and those races don't have a lot of character points to spare XD you can do it, but it can get very painful, and tends to lock you into certain roles. Which is fine, if that's how you want to play, but I felt it was important to note this on such options. The Human 4 18's build is generally a focus play, for example - you are one class, and are terrible outside of it.

    as to why I was bothering with upping non-main stats - well, again, the 4 18's is all about main stats and ignoring the not useful ones, and you can totally use that build style. BUT the devs have already mentioned that some enemies have immunities - building a straight fighter or straight mage will cause issues if the enemies prove to be immune to your main damage skills. Having at least a 10 in something off the main stat line of the build means you have another option for dealing damage at a reasonable rate, if you absolutely have to. The other reason I emphasized having at least 1 10 (or 1 8 in a non-human, and going for the 2 int skill points) is because your knowledge points gained get nerfed if your intelligence is under 10 - and let's face it, while gaining new skills slowly isn't a terrible thing, it can be a TERRIBLY ANNOYING thing XD if you don't care about it taking 40% longer to level a skill, a 6 int may be a decent idea. Lastly, most stats have secondary effects. both Strength and Constitution affect carrying capacity, dexterity gives movement bonuses and dodge chance, perception contributes to critical hit rates (both for and against you), and charisma gives you additional conversation options and luck. In general, avoiding having a 6 is a really good idea, just because of these secondaries; a wizard may not care about health - nothing hits them - but everyone cares about not being able to move because they are carrying too much stuff. In my min/max wizard, I picked constitution as the like 4th 18, based on the need to carry more than my magic bathrobe and stick of smiting XD similarly, since mana fuels all skills, having a 6 Intelligence means having a much slower mana regeneration rate - which means you don't get you use you Scythe Of Death Ultimate Attack! (or whatever) as often - a problem, especially in long battles.


    @target it's too darn late - for some reason I read you having 2 15s, not 2 14s




    @therippyone ahhh yes i missed the fact human's max stat is 18. which means, it's possible to have 3 10s and 3 18s?
    also, the difference in lvls if not significant will matter when advancing from 20->21


    @codetsilon only as extra stats (more armor, accuracy and so on)


    @muker yes i got that. but by how much. that is very important xD


    @codetsilon yup 3 18's, and 3 10's, are an option, and frankly are a decent build - you are powerful on your chosen path, but "okay" doing the opposite as well, in case your standard stuff isn't working for some reason. it

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