Races restricting freedom of play.
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Hello All, I hardly ever get on forms and give feedback but I feel strongly about this so I am taking it off the discord as there is no feedback section. I was asking questions about the races while reading the website and am posting them and the answers I was given here.
My biggest issue is this is going to needlessly split the playerbase of what is probably going to be fairly small because the niche of the game. I love the game and look forward to, maybe, playing it but I find it hard to get over this aspect. The three races are basically factions and factions have been an issue in MMOs for a long time as it breaks up people playing together just because they want to play a difference class/race. So then they are forced to play something they dont really want to play and then not really have attachment to it. As a side rant, for how many queues the game is taking from D&D I find it weird that in the race/alignment there is zero flexibility to allow people to play what they want and still play with their friends.
I really dislike that if my friends were to play one of us (probably me as no one likes pvp) will be forced to play a race/subclass...etc of something I really dont like and don't want just for story or flavor or lore or what have you. It grinds up against what is fun and takes away player choice for no real good reason.
The answer Lord Skykal gave me with the abomination or turning into an angel sounds really awesome but how late in the game is that? Anyone that wants to play a demon with their human/wildfolk friend is no going to say "Hey we cant play together for 100's of hours but at hour XX we can finally play the game".
Hopefully this system is tweaked to allow true freedom for people to play HOW they want with who they want.
Edit: I think a better method for lore and player experience to not be restricted would be to let people defect from their core alignment early on (1-2 hours?) and then let them play with another alignment/race. If a Wildfolk can only become a demon (pvp) and a Demon can only become an Angel (pve) then no Human is going to play with either without restrictions? But any amount of time from start to playing with friends pushes people away really fast so even an hour or so is pushing it. If you cannot spawn in and play with friends with the class/race that you want then they will walk away.
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The 3 Races and how they are handled is a Cornerstone Concept of this game.
As such, this is one of the things that the Devs are more than likely going to dig in their heels about overall.Realize, of course, that although the 3 races are world specific, and alignment factioned intially, Classes don't really exist in the game, and any character can learn any Skills and Talents, so you are given a large amount of choice.
The Races aren't as much about splitting the player base between likeminded adventuring groups, but more to splitting the playerbase among different distinct play-styles. Demons are for pure PvP player types, Wildfolk are for pure PvE player types, and Humans are for those who like a little Peanut Butter with their Chocolate (Mixed Pvp/PvE types)
The game is not really developed towards the idea of mixed racial groups traveling together, and although there are elements borrowed from D&D, that is more a side-effect of being an MMORPG, not a direct correlation. All MMORPGs were initially inspired by D&D, afterall, going back to UO, so cross pollination is to be expected, without copying everything over.
The fact of the matter is, even though the current movement in D&D is making everyone able to play every way they want, without no true Racial Distinction enforced, that doesn't mean the entire player base is even behind that there. I'm against Gatekeeping in games, HOWEVER, I don't see it as gatekeeping when you try to stick to a specific world them in your game, based on popular fantasy or sci-fi tropes, or even intend to develop your own specific cultural biases within the structure of the game.
Anyway, not to get into a debate about societal structures and Gatekeeping, suffice it to say, Fractured is built around the story of the 3 races and their distinct differences, and may give the option for Demons to become Angels, Wildfolk to become Abominations, and Humans to become Liches, or they may even drop that in the future. The Race=World linik however I fear is mainly here to stay.
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I would argue at a high level that D&D and Fractured are pulling from the same thing on play how you want and it's "limitless ways to play" but one of the core features of the game is locked in an unfriendly way. In D&D you could always play any class/race/alignment and only bad DMs would say no and have a hard stance on it, you find ways to make it work for the players.
But more on the game as D&D was mostly as people like to compare this to that for superficial reasons imo.
If that is what the are building the game around, I think that core aspect and the way it limits fun needs to be looked at. They could still have the planets and the limitations if that is what you picked at the start but what are the actual reasons?
If Humans and Demons can ever PvP against each other then clearly the sub-races are not poorly balanced or only balanced around other demons (right?) so Humans should be able to pick evil and go to the demon world with in-game lore/reasons behind it. Make it fit and make it work but don't restrict it just because it's a cool idea, it hinders players ability to play how they want.
I think what we will see on the Demon side is everyone that THINKS they like open world and full drop pvp will have fun for a bit but then a (Tibia term incoming) dominando guild will come about and then it will be decidedly unfun for a lot of people and then they what? Quit? Make another character and start all over? I personally don't care about the pvp people so whatever happens to them happens to them but I do think long-term it just never really works out the way players think it will. But this is going away from my personal issue and more on what I think will happen and that has nothing to do with this feedback.
I just think all the races should be able to play together as it leads to more fun and player choice and having the restrictions does nothing to really do anything in the game that people will care about long term. It will just be a sticking point for people that is not needed as its a limit/restriction/roadblock...etc that the devs are doing to themselves and the players.
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Sometimes, adding restrictions adds to and doesn't take away from the fun. Also, a 'Bad' DM is only a DM who doesn't run their table consistently.
Nobody's fun is wrong, if a table doesn't match your style, don't play at that table, doesn't mean that DM is bad in any way...it's a fallacy that has been engendered in modern versions of D&D saying you should always strive to say 'Yes' to the players. Sometimes, a DM could and actually should strive to say No and maintain the story idea that they want to run. Just like you have the right to play your character's personality the way you want, so the DM has the right to play their Campaign's personality the way they want. If you and your party don't mesh, then its the wrong party, and if you and your DM's campaign don't mesh, it's the wrong campaign.
Same goes with MMORPGs. Fractured is for a certain type, or rather, 3 certain types of players, and its built to foster those 3 separate approaches and the Race system is how they chose to segregate those playstyles, and they baked it into the core, on purpose. Sometimes, you totally cheapen a concept by giving in too much to one group of players, at the expense of the ones originally attracted by your core concept.
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Good point, clearly the game is not for me.
This is my feedback and I think it'll prove to be worse for the game.
Also, you say no to players in a game of D&D, clearly that does not apply here as this would be character creation and that bring more flavor and choice to the world being created.
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@deathfromace I personally don’t see how the game restricts play style. It may restrict your appearance if you want to travel with differently aligned characters right from character creation but it won’t restrict your play style. Also, as you can have more than one character you and your brother could each create two characters and help each other level up until you both have one character that can crossover. If you like all other aspects of the game this one thing doesn’t have to be a game breaker.
@GamerSeuss I once had a new DM that insisted on making everyone’s characters for them. I thought that this was the most heinous thing ever, at first, especially when I was handed my character sheet. I was given a character that had a trait “Stupidly Brave” I looked at that and thought for a few minutes getting very irate; then I went from anger to absolute glee evil grin It was one of the best times I ever had playing a character and every time a party member tried to question my actions I would look at our DM and say “Stupidly Brave” and bust up laughing. I worked very hard to find every way to utilize that trait because it was more fun to fully develop the character I was given then to miss out on playing. You have no idea the havoc a truly stupidly brave character can cause, LMAOROTF!
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Character look and aesthetic is fairly major in an MMO. If it didn't matter at all for anything then we would only have humans and /or nothing would be different between the three. Except there is clearly a difference.
People can have fundamental reasons to not want it but clearly you two are missing the point and the issue. It's fine if you two don't agree with my feedback but you two seem to be willfully ignoring the feedback at it core for seemingly no reason.
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I can agree that character look can be a major factor for people in an MMO. With that said, I did offer a way for you and your brother to play together from the beginning that would allow the two of you too create characters that satisfied both of you.
Yes, it is a bit more time consuming then just creating a single character each, but it does allow you both to play what you wish within the framework of the game. I did not ignore (willfully or otherwise) your feedback. I was simple trying to give you a way to enjoy Fractured as it was created, at its core. The way the planets and races are split is a large part of the entire scheme of the game and is what attracted a great deal of the original backers. No one is trying to ignore or slight you or your opinion or feedback; we are simply trying to help you understand that this is a core element of the game and hopefully help you find a way to enjoy it as much as we do. No disrespect was intended.
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@StormBug said in Races restricting freedom of play.:
@deathfromace I personally don’t see how the game restricts play style. It may restrict your appearance if you want to travel with differently aligned characters right from character creation but it won’t restrict your play style. Also, as you can have more than one character you and your brother could each create two characters and help each other level up until you both have one character that can crossover. If you like all other aspects of the game this one thing doesn’t have to be a game breaker.
I am not going to play what ends up being a grind heavy game with two characters just to work around a pointless and restrictive system. They can and could easily make the karma pay-off end-game something else just as rewarding while not limiting something as simple as playing with your friends. I offered a
betterdifferent solution on letting people defect their nature/natural born alignment early on instead of making it what I imagine will be a long ass grind to play with people.Either way my suggestion is just that, something I think will make the game better and give the players the ability to play the races they want while playing with their friends. The current way as read on the website and told by a GM in the Discord hinders player creation and does not offer "limitless ways to play" as right out of the gate you are hindered in what you want to play so odds are most people are stuck being human. They are then being forced to play a race that they do not want to and I think with how the game is being talked about this fact rubs up against the message.
Sure, I know the "limitless ways to play" is about the skills and abilities and MAYBE humans can learn how to transform into a "primal state" like the Wildfolk but I have been unable to find if that is true and honestly it wouldn't matter as who the hell wants to play a human if they want to pvp but not always.
Also I know it's old-hat to quote and use a marketing term for a game against the game but in this aspect I think its valid as it is quite literally limiting what I want and how I can play.
I cannot be the only one that feels this way and hopefully this is read by a dev or CM so it can be brought up....I mean, I know devs know everything wrong with a game and odds are this has been brought up and argued by another member of the dev team. I really just dont think the "cool factor" of how it is currently being done is better than allowing true player freedom. More people will care that they cannot do something and have issue with it than anyone other then whoever thought of the idea will think it's worth keeping. Or a better way of saying it, more people will have issue/care that it cannot be done then anyone will be for the restriction. It's player friction that is not need.
I thought about more to say so said it above but as I was ending it I will end this again. This is simply my suggestion and one I think is fair and worth doing so I will no longer reply or argue with people on it as then it just turns from my suggestion to theirs and this is a feedback section and I have given it to the best of my ability with more than just "this is bad" and tried to come up with at least another method of going about the same thing to allow more player choice.
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Adjusting and allowing choice is fine, until said actions impact the story that the game intends to tell.
Changing a cornerstone of a game essentially changes that game. It in essence becomes a different game.
Not saying you have to play Fractured, or that it is the game for you, no game is for everyone, but in essence, Fractured is what it is, and tells the story it tells, and to modify the cornerstone elements of the game would change that. You would argue that is a change for the better, while those of us who like this story element, would argue that it compromises the vision that Fractured puts forth.
We can of course agree to disagree. Sometimes, it is the limits in a system that give the most encouragement to creativity and adventure. Remember, playing within the rules is harder and more satisfying than just breaking them.
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This post is deleted!
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@GamerSeuss said in Races restricting freedom of play.:
We can of course agree to disagree. Sometimes, it is the limits in a system that give the most encouragement to creativity and adventure. Remember, playing within the rules is harder and more satisfying than just breaking them.
I personally don't think that applies to this as it's hindering player creativity and nothing else is in it's place.
@GMLordSkykal said in Races restricting freedom of play.:
I forward your feedback, but as stated by GamerSeuss, this is the intendet core mechanic (Three Races, all with their own world and mechanic, problems and possibilities).
Good to hear and I have no idea how feedback works on if we will actually hear back such as a simple "no" but I look forward to seeing what happens as this along with a few other things will dictate if I play/buy the game outside of the free weekends to see progress. I know no one really cares if I personally play but I think it's useful information to be known on what pulls and pushes people away from certain projects.
And the one thing (so far) that Seuess and I do agree on is not every game is for everyone and thus far it seems like this game will not be for me.
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Not sure why LordSkykal deleted the reply but hopefully another one happens or something gets done? What is going on over there.
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I will say one thing bout races atm they dont seem very balanced, seem the wildfolk are kinda much stronger than humans looking at character select stats.
Wildfolk can get +20 to either Dex or int atm in char select where humans can only get +18 this means with talents and a +2 enchant on a necklace you can easily get the 24 mark where alot of your skills/spell get good bonus where humans i dont even know if it possible to get there currently best i got was 22 int on my mage during test
As for other stats bonuses
It seems humans get 150 bonus luck and 2 extra skill point to spend in character creation
Where Wildkin Tigers : +100 poison resistance + 100 stealth +4% crit chance
Deer : +100 poison resistance +500 mana + 5% spell dmgIm not sure how huge luck effects thing so maybe it is balanced but it didnt seem to do a whole lot when it came to pvp not that little of it atleast. I dont think the bonuses outweigh being able to be +20 in a stat on character creation though since it so easy to get to +24 for the rathert big bonus on all ur spell/abilities
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We don't know human bonuses until the tooltip is fixed.
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@Veeshan Also, Wildfolk don't PvP, they can go Neutral and fight another neutral but they aren't even required to go neutral when Legends are summoned on Arborea (confirmed via Jacopo earlier)
