Concerns related to the attributes
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@Manaia
I'll start by telling that having played some UO and a lot of Albion, I have my own biases.I don't consider world bosses competitive content, because it's basically just a raid party protected by zvz, but I agree that this subject would derail the thread and we should make a separate thread about it.
The thing with Fractured is that you can create a hard counter just from buffs and passives. If you dive someone farming ents (blunt/earth damage, fire vulnerability), you will have a big advantage over them by coming with a lot of fire res. So, as far as small scale and casual pve builds are concerned, if people follow metas it will be very easy to counter them because you know exactly what to expect.
ZvZ is all about a good syncronization, so forcing certain loadouts is very important because otherwise you run in a lot of awkward problems, like having tanks that can't actually survive in the frontline, dps that can't follow up because they don't have an engage skill, or get wiped in the first counter attack because they don't have a defensive skill, or can't reengage because they picked skills with long cooldowns etc. Attributes are fixed and there is content besides zvz. Minmaxing doesn't really make a big difference in zvz, but it reduces the flexibility of your builds and greatly affects small scale content. As far as attributes go, I think guilds will just have minimum recruitment req for each archetype: have this skill unlocked and a minimum of x points in that stat, which would be used as baseline by the shotcallers.
I haven't played D3, but I played D2. Going from pala to druid is not a respec, while going from charger to foher is. Back to my paragraph, the point was that killteams and hardcore pve parties are the only ones who gain real advantages by changing their attributes with every gameplay balance patch.
@Tuoni
I also wonder if they do gvgs and wcs, or proper sieges as in older MMOs.@KairosVal
Some games allow people to turn skins off outside towns, but I don't think this will make a big difference in Fractured. On the other hand, if you can inspect someone and see their skills (as in Albion), once you are familiar with the game it takes a few seconds to figure out what the enemy can do.
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@KairosVal said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Perhaps the human-readable part can be camouflaged behind skins, but if we have option to inspect then it does not really matter.
Still reckon there's a big difference between seeing it at a glance and having to click open an inspection menu then move it out of the way of combat then read it all while fighting and trying not to die.
Not sure if an inspection option is planned, but if implemented, would be interesting if the level of information revealed was linked to the perception attribute.
It is true that fast inspection can be hard especially to casual players but those who play at competitive level this is most likely not a problem at all. However, we have to take account that we do not know how the sieges will actually work. If those are just 'fast paced chaotic pew pews' perhaps then there is not enough time to do any inspections. However, if the fights have at least some level strategy and waiting then it won't be a problem to check what the other team has to offer. It is also not a problem to top teams change a strategy in the middle of the fight based on what they have seen what their enemy is capable of (what abilities they use and what they wear).
Even you could not react to the other team in the middle of the fight next time you do and most likely will know other teams too because streams and videos will take care of that. I am not sure how familiar you or any people here are how things really works at competitive levels and especially in games where two team are figting for each other for any reasons. I have been part of hardcore and semi-hardcore guilds in Albion where territory wars is the end-game content. Even I have not fight myself in those competitive GvG fights I have followed quite close how the things works, helped with territory war logistics (gathered, crafted, transported) and participated to ZvZ actions. When you can follow so close what the top players are capable of it is actually amazing, something like reading the enemy via inspecting or through their actions is so damn easy to them.
Like @Razvan I have also some burden from Albion which can twist the vision how the sieges in Fractured will work. However, actually I expect sieges in Fractured offer something more than GvGs in Albion, still the base idea is the same. Moreover, some top guilds in Albion are already awere of Fractured and interested to hop in when the real action for them starts, perhaps already in beta, or maybe for the launch, will see.
Your idea of link perception to inspection is interesting and something what could be concidered if it could be implemented way that it really offers extra value for the game.
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Active skills are easy to observe, yeah. Especially through recording.
But passives are much harder to read, especially if they don't come with visible effects. It all depends how game is designed.
Personally, I would love if game came without (or with "opt in" gear inspection).
Default: inspect off, and it is only available if you click allow for your gear to be inspected.
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@Gothix said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Active skills are easy to observe, yeah. Especially through recording.
But passives are much harder to read, especially if they don't come with visible effects. It all depends how game is designed.
Hmmm... I was wondering, that what would be such passives that would even need inspection? I am not saying there could not be any but from my experience it is enough to see what others wear and what abilities they use. Passives does not usually offer anything game changing and you can expect your enemy to use the best ones (meta wise) anyway.
Personally, I would love if game came without (or with "opt in" gear inspection).
Default: inspect off, and it is only available if you click allow for your gear to be inspected.Personally, I do not even care, inspection or not I am totally fine by that. I do not inspect much other players anyway so I guess without inspection would support better my personal play style. However, I am not sure what would be best from the game point of view...
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@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Hmmm... I was wondering, that what would be such passives that would even need inspection? I am not saying there could not be any but from my experience it is enough to see what others wear and what abilities they use. Passives does not usually offer anything game changing and you can expect your enemy to use the best ones (meta wise) anyway.
Depending on design, passives can mean a lot. From my (TSW) example, passives were like 300% of the build.
You had active skills of certain type, they caused bleeds, vulnerabilities, they were piercing, etc they had many characteristics...
Then you had million passives, for example make piercing hits crit extra, then you could add passive, make all your crits raise your block rate by X, then you could put passive make all your blocks heal you for Y, then make all your heals do % damage around you...
I'm just sketching this, but passives could not only proc of actives, but of other passives as well, that procced of other passives, of other passives....
so when you hit enemy, if you had passitve to do aoe around him if you crit, then if your aoe proced something, then it chained to another passive, ... you get my point
It was insane what you could do with passive theorycrafting, in addition to your gear and active skill assortment.
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@Gothix I am not personally familiar with TSW and I presume we are talking about Secret World. Anyway, at the moment in Fractured, I have a feeling that passives does not have a huge role and those concentrate either increase or decrease your effectiveness. And I would personally like it be more so the focus would be in the actions and different ability variations. Passives be 300% of a build sounds terrible tbh.
