Alternative to crafting and enchanting RNG headache.
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I believe that the desire to make higher quality equipment rarer and more costly can be done without RGN and with more resource sink and player satisfaction.
The current system has 3 RNG levels for crafting.Basic is 80fine/20good, and stays there for residents despite tech.
Craftmanship+ specialty shop:
80good/20 exceptional
This roughly means that every third item will be exceptionalEngineering + specialty shop:
40good/60 exceptional
This roughly means that every other item will be exceptionalAll these odds are fine and appear fair.
But because of RNG it is entirely possible to have a run of 15 items with none being exceptional.
(I have experience with this from making hundreds of cotton cloth armor)
This is quite frustrating and produces lots of worthless unwanted good equipment which floods the market with little demand when exceptional goods are also available.My suggestion is to switch from RNG to resource costs.
Instead of one craft button you have two.
One with the base resource costs that produces the lower quality option.
The other with twice (for the 40/60 ratio) or three times (for the 80/20 ratio) base resource cost that produces the higher quality option.So with Engineering and a tailors shop you would have two buttons-
One that will cost 5 cotton cloth and produce a good quality cloth armor piece.
Another button that will cost 10 cotton cloth and produce a exceptional quality cloth armor piece.This maintains the over all odds of getting a piece while increasing the resource sink but letting the crafter know what they will get instead of having them roll the dice to see if they are lucky or not.
This reduces the issue of crafting unwanted good items and prevents the market being flooded. In addition with a reliable way to get exceptional items it is more likely to see them for sale in the market instead of hoarded as rare event pieces.This same base idea can be extended to enchanting.
In the enchanting case the first enchant on an item requires one of each reagent, the second requires two of each reagent, the third requires four of each.
Even if you keep the RNG odds of loosing an item the loss is quantifiable in its cost to replace without having to worry about more cumulative RNG gambling.
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Won't happen!
Games, especially MMORPGs, rely on situations such as you describe in order to drive their in-game economy. RNG fickle results are part and parcel of the MMORPG experience and it is highly doubtful that any MMORPG developer would shoot themselves in the foot metaphorically speaking by removing the RNG aspect of the game for increasing resource costs. Yes, to the individual player/crafter, it might seem like a win-win situation, but for overall game longevity, such a move would produce a death knell.
This is not to say that Fractured won't adjust the RNG variables, and keep refining their RNG seed engine to get more randomized results, it just means you'll never see the system you propose taken up by any MMORPG wishing to have a chance at long-term success on the market.
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I've played mmorpgs that give an option like that. They don't balance it as fairly as you state though. Instead you'd be looking at paying a lot of resources for a better chance of the higher quality or even needing premium currency like all those money-grabbing free-to-play games.
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@GamerSeuss said in Alternative to crafting and enchanting RNG headache.:
Won't happen!
Games, especially MMORPGs, rely on situations such as you describe in order to drive their in-game economy. RNG fickle results are part and parcel of the MMORPG experience and it is highly doubtful that any MMORPG developer would shoot themselves in the foot metaphorically speaking by removing the RNG aspect of the game for increasing resource costs. Yes, to the individual player/crafter, it might seem like a win-win situation, but for overall game longevity, such a move would produce a death knell.
This is not to say that Fractured won't adjust the RNG variables, and keep refining their RNG seed engine to get more randomized results, it just means you'll never see the system you propose taken up by any MMORPG wishing to have a chance at long-term success on the market.
RNG is a crutch, and thus an opportunity for an MMORPG to attract customers by replacing it with a better system.
Furthermore, RNG is not required to provide resource sinks: that's a fallacy. Over the long haul, RNG averages out; all RNG really does is cause some crafters to fail more and others less.
And since humans remember failures more than successes, that inserts a kind of poison into the gameplay that builds up over time, eventually causing players like me to leave (I've seen this pattern in myself, and I'd be surprised if I were one-of-a-kind).
I much prefer deterministic crafting.
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Alternative is to allow destroy power quality items to get back some amount of resources that they were made of.
And add recycling in techtree.
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If you are arrive at the point that you can flood the market in an attempt to make the exceptional item, it means that you could afford to discard the good ones even though the difference between a good and an exceptional one is many times negligible.
If that happens, the problem is that the resource is way too common.
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@spoletta said in Alternative to crafting and enchanting RNG headache.:
If you are arrive at the point that you can flood the market in an attempt to make the exceptional item, it means that you could afford to discard the good ones even though the difference between a good and an exceptional one is many times negligible.
If that happens, the problem is that the resource is way too common.
This also depends on materials u need to use for crafting.
Example (lets assume only armour items head+chest+boots+hands):
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full plate set (basic, with alloy ingots and effort x2)
-11 ingots -> 60 ore + 48 coal and 4 to 48 hours depending on how many smelters u will use (take into consideration that u need to gather this and transport [3,5 carts ])
-6 refined leather -> 16 hours and 1 station required -
full leather set
-11 refined leather -> 16 hours and 2 station required (or 32 hours with one station)
-no heavy materials transportation needed -
full cloth set
-11 refined fabric -> instant if resource from mobs (idk how much effort to produce some on farming)
-no heavy materials transportation needed
Taking this raw calculation into consideration, crafting additional items to skip RNG:
- for plate items - not worth
- for leather items - depends on kind of material that u want to use (for some common leather maybe its worth)
- for fabric items - seems to be most efficient with current state of game (luck enchant and items are affecting drop rate, and people will exp on mobs anyway so u can get resurces easier [drop or buy])
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It's the uncertainty of the RNG system that gives many games their appeal. The RNG stands in for such mechanics as Dice in say a boardgame. Yes, you remember failures, but actually psychological studies show you learn more from failures, but you actually remember your successes more, despite what you might think. A success, when there is an uncertainty factor involved, triggers the release of endorphins in the brain giving a sense of euphoria, and makes you appreciate having done something special. Yes, this is only a game, and with enough repetition, such euphoria boosts eventually even out, just like RNG eventually evens out and then it becomes a simple matter of where you set the percentages.
Look at how many people still play the Lotto, and why places like Las Vegas and Reno are so popular. Everyone wants to hope for the longshot. Set the highest result to 20% chance, you get a lot of winners, set it to 5% and you get very few, drop it to 1% or less, and you get people lining up for the chance at the experience. Give the players a chance to affect their chances in a small way, or even better, the illusion that they are, and the popularity of the game goes through the roof.
Player's Crafting Window=Always Poor (very unsatisfying, used only in a pinch of when it's the only option, like currently Trinkets)
Home Crafting Bench= Chance for results from Poor to Excellent, but Excellent is harder to come by.
City Crafting Building once Research has improved chances= Chance for Poor goes to almost nil, chance for Exceptional goes up.Players feel like they have some agency now. Instead of making it more materials to guarantee success, how about different materials to increase chance of success. Adding in in-game situations when the success numbers are more and less favorable. Crafting at night increased chance of Poor, Crafting at High Noon, increased chance of success. Leaving an offering at the town Shrine, increase chance of better quality crafting results for the next hour, Crafting while under a Ghoul's Touch affect or Poisoned, Increased chance of Poor, etc...
Then, the only thing else they need to do is adjust and balance out the real difference between the quality categories. Highest quality might have an extra Enchant Slot, Lowest quality starts at 75% durability over normal, etc...
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@Jacenson
That's exactly my point. As you said, right now discarding metal products would be foolish. That's because IMO the metal process is the only one correctly implemented at the moment.Indeed, if you look around at my posts, you will see that I've many times stated that the current system for leather and wood needs some more work and the current system for cloth looks more like a placeholder than an actual planned system.
Wood needs a refining process. Have it dry first.
Leather does not entail hauling heavy materials around, so it should at least interact with other resources. Ideally when we get alchemy, we should have tanning agents. Put the leather in the tanning tube and then add the agent. Weak tanning agents for tier 1 and 2 leather, mild agent for tier 3 and strong agent for tier 4. The amount of agent depends on the amount of leather in the tube.
Similar system for cloth.
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@GamerSeuss
You can only learn from failures that could have been successes through some action of your own. like having a higher luck stat or put more points into the crafting skill.
Failure from random RNG produces nothing but frustration because there is nothing you can do about it. Nothing. It is random, arbitrary, chaos.
Earlier I was putting the second enchant on a staff, it said there was 76% chance success, 5% of destroy. The enchant failed three times in a row and then destroyed the staff. What is there to learn from that? 'be luckier?' 'sucks to be you'? Totally useless. There is nothing I could do to affect the result, no skill, equipment, or tech which was available to avoid it. Just random arbitrary RNG saying " today you fail because, fuck you." Meanwhile another person on the server enchants five things in a row at 60%success, 15% destroy with no issues and wonders what the problem is as they dont see it because it does not happen to them, Due to random, arbitrary RNG just saying 'I like this guy today'.
Giving players something they can -do- to get what they -want- and avoid -failure- promotes action, farming, and learning.
The only thing a person learns from having their plate armor disappear from a 5% fail chance is -sucks to be you. Which is not helpful in any way shape or form, If anything they are more likely to just give up in frustration.
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I wasn't indicating you would learn from an in-game failure, although you do, you learn when it is worthwhile to risk something, and when that risk is too much for your character.
I only mentioned the failure bit as an aside on the psychological study of the reactions people had to success and failure. Yes, you learn more from failure, BUT as far as remembering goes, you tend to remember, and get a much more visceral satisfactory HIGH from Success when success or failure is not guaranteed. It is the gambler's high, and it is a huge part of the overall draw of game play in the first place.
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RNG is not fun and always counts as a negative for any game I play. There is always a better way if one is adventurous enough keep trying.
There have been too many personal stories where it takes me 10 times more tries to get something than any other person I've talked to. I think a named mob that is known to have a thing, should always have that thing. The influx of that thing controlled by how often it spawns.
For crafting, I will go above and beyond to get skills to give me 100% chance to make something. Like in Eve Echoes, I maxed out ORE invention so there is no way I can fail at making a blueprint with rare materials. I am the person that always fails with a 98% success rate. I am the 2%.
I for one am always for player choice. Some like RNG, I suspect many more hate it, but live with it. Humans can get use to some terrible things. I get the thrill of combining something and getting the best result on the first combine, I have never experienced it. I would think there is a way to offer the players a choice though and allow the RNG to be offset by putting more effort in a different space. The system could stay like it currently is but adding to it could help a lot.
I think the worst part of RNG crafting is gathering really really rare materials, combining them, and losing them completely. Not getting the best combine is essentially losing the materials even if a lesser product is made. Instead if there was a rare drop that could be traded that would close the RNG gap, it would accomplish the same thing. Only difference is, you have no failure change when you go to do the final combine. You still have to get lucky to get that drop, and would be a sought after item.
Another way to do it is to have an extra step to sort through the regular mats to find the high quality ones from the bunch. Essentially the second button in the original post, except it would create a secondary market of extra refining.
Yet another way would be to have certain areas excel in producing higher quality versions of the materials. This would be region specific and only that region would produce this higher quality version. This would encourage more cross region trade. Since no two regions would have the same high quality versions, if the crafters want the best chances, they have to potentially gather 2 to 3 high quality materials from as many different regions.
Player choice is king. Some LOVE RNG. Some HATE RNG. Most don't mind putting a little more effort into making things. Those that love RNG don't mind farming 10 times more materials to get what they want. Those that hate RNG probably don't mind spending a little bit more time on the gathering side to make sure they get the thing they want in one combine. It shouldn't be easy, but it doesn't need to be random.
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Usually the design goes like this:
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You give priority to the single player making his own stuff ---> No RNG crafting.
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You give priority to "crafters" supplying multiple players with stuff ---> RNG crafting.
Personally I love spending most of my time in a crafter role, so I like the RNG systems, but I also understand those who don't like it.
In the end, I would live fine with any of them.
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As I have said before, those who dislike RNG are generally in the minority. In fact, many who say they dislike RNG actually don't, they are drawn to RNG systems, this is why we get compulsive gamblers, and why casinos and Lotteries are so popular. Everyone likes the Sweepstakes feel of getting that 1 in a million long shot to pay off. Most people want to try to get something for nothing, or as little effort as possible for the most reward.
Even if your talking realism, a Master craftsman still fails once in a great while. Maybe not 1 in 100 tries, depending on their level of expertise and the difficulty of what they are crafting, but there is always the chance of failure in anything, and yes, failure can mean wasted materials. In games, you generally express this by the RNG. Sooooo the RNG system both simulates the games of chance/gambling proclivities that reside in over 90% of the human population, and the real world fact that you don't always succeed, no matter how skilled or well supplied you are.
It is in fact the RNG factor in the game that makes of it a game, instead of merely a puzzle or activity. Games generally have a level of uncertainty involved in them. Sure, skill level plays a roll, but a good game includes the ability of a grand master to sometimes be knocked down by the neophyte.
When it is all said and done, this is the reason that 'Dice-less' roleplaying games generally way undersell standard dice-based rpgs on the market.
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Personally my enjoyment in RNG systems is because it requires more "skill" to be managed.
You can't math your ideal solution. You need to optimize and improvise, Managing lesser quality products without them becoming trash, finding a market for all your production no matter the quality is what makes a succesful crafter in a sandbox game.On the other hand, from the point of view of the player which just wants to make his armor, RNG sucks. Because in his case he actually trashes the bad results. He doesn't have the volume of production to optimize.
This usually means that the single player pays more in trying to make his own stuff than what he would pay if he just were to buy it, because the seller has more production and so more optimization.
This has its perks and flaws.
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I made this post under the impression that the Devs wanted to limit the amount of RNG headaches players would encounter and wanted to pose possible alternatives.
Dismissing the discussion because it is a 'minority opinion' is not helpful and ads nothing to the discussion.
The devs have already made investigations and adjustments to the RNG system in order to alliviate RNG headaches, the biggest point of evidence of this is the melee combat ability that removes RNG from melee damage instead just giving the user max damage on the range.
@GamerSeuss
If you have no constructive feedback then please keep it to your self.What other options might those who feel this is something worth talking about have?
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The only RNG I like is when the game world is randomly generated. Why? Because I want to go somewhere and see something no one else has seen. When it comes to PvP, I prefer to be able to out think my opponent, Chess. Recently a really fun variant is Chess 5D on steam... time travel and multiverse... god it is a amazing.
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Coming back to topić post. Solution for this could be also just little difference between quailty ranks. Better quality would still give some small adventage but this shouldnt be major to not encourage people to unnecessary grind
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I acknowledge your point Jacenson however at the moment one of the few ways you can reduce the odds of item destruction when enchanting is to use higher quality equipment -excellent- which makes it kind of a requirement if you intend to do any enchanting beyond one enchantment.
If the odds of loosing an item to enchanting destruction were not tied to quality or had some other way to help mitigate then the good quality items would see more value.
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@OlivePit I do believe the giving of max damage on melee combat instead of using the RNG was merely a stop-gap they put in during Alpha Testing as the fine points of combat are tested out. Prometheus did point out in another post that RNG was used and would be used for Spells and Skills, and their interactions with Talents, so that all damage calculations are still going to be a range.
I am trying to be constructive. Sometimes constructive isn't always about making things the way a poster wants them to be, sometimes it is more about explaining the reasoning behind certain mechanical decision making.
I'm not dismissing the discussion at all, I'm takin it quite seriously. I'm also, as we all are, looking at the longevity of the game, and realizing that a game without the randomness of a good, balanced RNG engine will be doomed to fail in the long run. As I said before, Randomness is what makes something a game, without the Randomness, it is more a Sport, Task, or Puzzle. I love Chess, for instance, but Chess is more an exercise in tactical thinking than a game. A Grandmaster chess player if not distracted, will beat the neophyte 100 out of 100 games, all day long. Thus there is no chance, whatsoever for the neophyte to do anything but maybe learn more patterns and improve. A lofty goal, but not what a game is about.
Yes, other great uses of RNG is random environment generation, randomizing the look and feel of some scenery, even randomizing the FX effects of some spells and abilities, but the Damage Range, and Critical Chance RNG systems are what will keep people coming back to combat. The RNG of success, failure, and possible total loss will cause people to obsess on crafting. Yes, it will turn some people away, and yes, Fractured has tried to make strides in not turning people away even if they are in a minority, however, the solution has to also not end up turning away the majority who play.
