Crafting from a wishful thinker

Donner

Hello all,
new to this game as I am I want to state that so far I do love what I see for the skills and the dynamics of the game. But for me I am striving to find an MMO where crafting doesn't just feel like a side job. I have found some MMO's that did a decent enough job but still felt like it was lacking when it comes to feeling rewarded for focusing on crafting. From what I have seen there is a decent amount of crafts and currently with the state of the game I am content. But I feel like this game has potential to turn crafting into something greater.

If you have ever read the novel turned manhua: Overgeared, it has some pretty cool concepts that I feel like this game could definitely grasp and utilize into greater specializing the crafting side of things. I did read somewhere that humans will have advantages over technology, something that the other races will not have, but I feel like all races could incorporate some types of crafting ideas. while a lot of current MMO's have trash loot that can be used for basic crafting, and you can farm bosses for their soul or whatever to turn into some item that sells for billions of currency, there seems to be a lack of middle ground crafting materials in most MMO's. As the title states, I am a wishful thinker, and honestly I want to list some ideas and scenarios that I would love to see in an MMO when it comes to the availability of crafting, and why someone like me who loves competitive play would greatly appreciate competitive crafting and specialized opportunities. Let me know what you all think of this down below, ill take criticism or your ideas on what should / should not be a thing when it comes to making crafting more viable and rewarding.

Crafting itself has always been a thing that every one can do. It has almost always been something in MMO's where you can find some leather, maybe some string and get yourself some starter gear. Maybe you can make a few bandages and whatnot and that is definitely a fine thing. I want to state that I do not in any way want to bar those who can do beginner crafts the opportunity to do so. I just want to feel more reward in crafting and the types of things I can craft when it comes to higher level crafting. I think the idea of having to find your skills by battling monsters is a fantastic idea! It is unique and it makes me excited for the combat side of this game, but what about a type of system like that for crafting? As a crafter I would personally love to go out into the world and try my best to find the rarest of crafting designs, so that I could make myself and my guild more powerful. Maybe its not just a crafting recipe, maybe it means that you have to farm 15 or whatever dropped swords from a certain type of mob, so that you can analyse it and gain knowledge on how to craft that type of weapon. This way each guild can have a few dedicated crafters whose main focus would be to strengthening the guild, and they can assist that person by giving trash loot weapons or armor that they find to the crafter so that they could learn the knowledge on how to craft it, and then make armor or weapons with a high rating but better design and perks. I know that I personally would love to play that role. In this case what I mean by perks of items that are learnt is maybe this:

...
"Weapon_crafted_by_Donner": [
  {"name": 'Minotaur axe of foo'},
  {"stats": 'base stats gained from player crafting (these are just generally rolled stats and whatnot gained by rarity obtained while crafting it)'},
  {"inherent": 'weapons crafted using the knowledge gained by analyzing the Minotaurs weapons and characteristics gain the following: +5 to attack'}
] };

From this example of a weapon, the stats that are rolled on it are based on the skill of the crafter, but the reason you might craft this weapon over another one, is that the person you are crafting this item for wants that +5 to attack that inherently comes with the design learned from analyzing the weapons of the Minotaurs. Using these creatures as an example, it wouldn't be too hard to grind these guys out enough to gain knowledge of how their weapons work, but it would be something that would feel rewarding for crafters like me who would love to take time to grind out the recipe, and then barter with guild mates for collected materials in order make them items, get a little bit of gold from it, but also greatly improve my crafting skills. In the end if there is a hardcore guild who has a crafter in a system like this, no longer would items from mobs (the rare drops at least) just be seen as gold on the market that if they sell enough of, they can just go buy a mass produced sword, now it becomes an incentive to collaborate with the crafters within the guild. I think I have had too many times where I specialize my crafting in an MMO only to find out that the only really special thing I can do with that crafting, is just sell my stuff to the market where x amount of people have hundreds of the same item listed. I understand if it was a consumable item, but there needs to be another place that I could put my gear effort and gear into, and I personally would find it most rewarding if it goes to my guild to become stronger.

Another thing is the balance of effort put into crafting and specialized "life skills". I think there is something wrong with having to afk fish for hundreds of hours if not thousands to gain top ranks in the crafting world. I would like to see a balance between the time spent grinding, analyzing and producing items / consumables and the levels of your crafts. While it is hard to make skills for crafting for it to not be a simple press of a button and then craft away, I think what I like most about crafting is the chance to get the rare materials and need the skills to use these rare materials. Say that we killed a Minotaur and now have its horn. Say that the system I mentioned before is implemented and I have the ability to create weapons using their styles. Well while some games play with the notion that you have a chance to fail the craft and lose all of the materials, the novel I mentioned that I fell in love with had a particular system where rarity falls into play. If you are a lower level crafter, you can craft certain items, but the rarity produced and maybe any other beneficial affects comes from your skills withing your crafting ability. So maybe a low level crafter makes a shabby Minotaur great sword, while a master crafter can make a legendary Minotaur great sword, making it do more % damage per rarity increase, and maybe even making procs happen withing the master crafters skills tree. Lets say that the master crafter has a 5-10% chance to craft a legendary item every craft. And that he has a passive skill that makes it so if you craft a legendary item, it adds "shining" to the title and adds a modifier that increases damage by 20%. So maybe a master crafter has a chance at making that same weapon but looks like this:

...
"Weapon_crafted_by_Donner": [
  {"name": 'Legendary Shining Minotaur axe of foo'},
  {"stats": 'base stats gained from player crafting (these are just generally rolled stats and whatnot gained by rarity obtained while crafting it)'},
  {"crafting": [
    {'shining = True'},
    {'legendary = True'}
  ],
  {"inherent": 'weapons crafted using the knowledge gained by analyzing the Minotaurs weapons and characteristics gain the following: +5 to attack'}
] };

The benefit of having a system like this is giving the master crafter satisfaction for their hard work, and a chance to make a name for themselves. This would also eliminate the discrepancy between a "trash tier craft" and a "god tier craft". What I mean by this is that when you play a lot of MMO's you are plagued with every crafter making the same overpowered weapon and filling up the marketplace with it. Nobody would touch a crafting recipe that you get from a low level, because its stats can't go any higher so it doesn't matter. But with this system you could potentially eliminate that flooding of the market with the same item, and bring back the variation and play styles into peoples game. Maybe the rouge wants a knife made by analyzing the Kuo-toa (fish people) that allows him to move faster in rivers so that he can preform better flanks in a certain area where his guild is located at. But he needs a master crafter to make one for him so he can keep his dps up compared to his other weapons that he got from higher levels. Or maybe the mage needs some boots with a master crafters proc on it, its a lower level recipe so the materials are easy to gather and in exchange for your services, they brought enough materials to make 30 of the certain boots, and some gold for the finishes product. What would drive the mage to do something like this? maybe the boots had an inherent effect that comes from crating from that specific mob. Like shadow mages of (place) inherent effect is to make effects last 15% longer (per item equipped). But they want the master crafter to make it because he grinded out a passive skill from some rare mobs that allow him to enchant at least epic rated boots with "turn invisible for 1 second on hit and increase movement speed by 50% (30 second cooldown)". With the combined set all the sudden it turns to almost 2 seconds and if this mage is a combat mage in PvP 2 seconds on invisibility and 50% move speed can save their life.

Plase remember that these are just ideas that I would absolutely love to see in an MMO. Even if none of this is implemented, that wont stop me from playing this game, as I think it already has some amazing concepts. I am a wishful thinker but I would like to know what all of you think about this. As someone who loves crafting in a game, this would definitely be something I would enjoy and if the devs do decide to take any of my ideas and utilize them I would be more than happy to play test and give feedback.

Ostaff

@Donner I am also a very die hard crafter, and I have yet to find a game that fills what I want, though the Saga of Ryzom does a great job with crafting, I feel that it could still be better.

With that said, from playing alpha I am not sure this game will have what I am wanting out of crafting either, since their base craft was not that extravagant. They seem to be more geared toward the enchanting side which touches upon what Ryzom did with their actual craft materials. Still, I am hoping and waiting to see what they actually pull out of their crafting hats, as many others I have met on here are doing as well.

I would even like specialization within crafting, having enchanter being its own set of learnable skills, carpentry its own (for building houses, wagons, etc), armorsmithing , blacksmithing (horse shoes, hoes, etc for farming and building), weaponsmithing, cooking and etc. But I think they are more in line of everyone can craft anything mentality for this game and the stats are based on the material used and not the skill level of the crafter.

We will just have to see though, and I think this game is offering enough in other areas to still make it enjoyable for me.

Chapex

@Donner The aspects of a video game that always caught my attention are the setting, the story, the PVE missions and crafting.

In this sense, I always found myself at a certain point with great barriers that took me from one game to another in search of that comfort that is so difficult to find.

Very basic or epic but repetitive settings, simple, non-existent or memorable stories but destroyed during the evolution of the game, meaningless missions, and very basic, non-existent or highly interesting crafting but it becomes obsolete in a short time.

I hope that Fractured can be the conjunction of all those factors and stands out in each one of them.

From this perspective, it would be very good to have a much more interesting and relevant crafting system than those that exist in current games.

That is complete, remains relevant over time and can become a profitable way to play for those who decide to dedicate themselves fully. When I say profitable I am not just referring to the economic factor within the game, I am referring to something broader and that implies the progression of our character globally.

Without a doubt, anything that enriches the crafting system of a game I think is something worthwhile.

Tuoni

@Donner Really comprehensive and overwhelming post at the same time. Anyhow, I am a dedicated crafter myself and I would like to see this option in Fractured as well. However, I have my concerns related to crafting and how it might end up to be quite flat without serious goals. I guess it depends how complex and special the advanced crafting will eventually be. There is very little information available and I have eagerly waited to get more knowledge about the crafting system, but I do not have idea when it is planned to open up the crafting a little bit more. Anyway, I would also like to see that crafters could actually learn and unlock recipes via crafting, especially like analyzing/examining existing items, and perhaps these items could salvage in this process and that way work also as an item sink mechanic. Moreover, there could also be crafter specific tasks which could unlock access to certain recipes. There is nothing wrong if some recipes are dropped from the open world but some of them should be unlocked via crafting as well.

Ostaff

@Tuoni totally agree

Roccandil

I agree with the OP, in that I've never found a crafting system that felt like the one I really wanted to play.

These are things I don't like in crafting systems:

RNG (for me, equals gambling)
repetition (I feel like the game is wasting my time)
recipes (this one is harder to explain: I like recipes I discover, not as item drops, but through research)

Things I do like:

Deep exploration to discover recipes (for instance, through trial-and-error combination of raw ingredients, rather like Might and Magic 6+)
Tech/recipe refinements (Master of Orion II's tech tree was awesome: once you finished researching a tech tree, you could then research refinements of that tech class, and thus be able to design even better Doom Stars! )
Massive engineering (like Minecraft or Wurm Online): which I suppose could also be called dynamic crafting (you're not just building a pre-fab, you're designing something with trade-offs)
Automation of repetitive tasks
Tool upgrades (crafting the best stuff is dependent on tool level as well as skill level and ingredient level)
Skill advances dependent on unique actions (Project Gorgon, for instance, gives an exp bounty for the first time you complete any recipe, so it encourages you to build everything to level up, instead of focusing on something easy to repeat)

I think Fractured has some of both the good and the bad for me, so we'll see.

Donner

@Tuoni Yeah! I definitely agree.

I do think that if they do anything to improve the crafting system from the standard norms than this will be very enjoyable for me. Even if crafting falls flat I will probably have fun with this game but I know that if there is an in depth system in place it will always have me coming back.

As far as RNG goes I agree that normally RNG can lead to a systematic urge to start gambling ( I know that Black Desert has claimed WAY too much money from me) but if used correctly where it does not have any adverse effects it can be used to make crafting a more enjoyable experience. Difficult at some times yes, but when you finally get that lucky craft out then the feeling makes all the minor suffering worth it in my opinion.

Tuoni

RNG does not automatically mean bad system and it really depends how the system is implemented. If a crafter have 10% change to craft a good quality item it might sound gambling in individual situations, however, if we examine that with larger sampling and we take account probability calculations, then the RNG will have less impact for the result. For example from 100 crafted items you get averagely 10 good quality items and the margin of error is just few percentages. When the sampling is getting even higher the margin will have less and less impact.

Ostaff

@Tuoni said in Crafting from a wishful thinker:

you get averagely 10 good quality items and the margin of error is just few percentages. When the sampling is getting even higher the margin will have le

I think RNG is good in the following manner: very low % (10% or under) you make a mistake and get a worse quality of item crafted or lose some material, (%10 or lower) you hit enlightment on crafting and make an item a tier higher than normal. (GO YOU!!!) where the higher you skill level is the lower the failure chance and the greater the improvement chance is, but still the majority 80% is the crafting of an item of that level,

Farlander

Sounds like the crafting in Star Wars Galaxies is what you guys like.

*The recipes were long and the resources were rare. In fact, if you were the lucky guy to find a particular resource one week when it spawned you may be the only one to have it forever.

*The resources were randomized on several traits. I think each resource had like 6-7 traits.

*The locations for these resources changed locations. It could be on Naboo one week and then on Bespin another.

*You could make a schematic or a one off when you crafted. A schematic was fed into a factory which would run as long as it had space to hold the output and resources to feed the schematic.

As with any game that doesn't supply the actual results; it is only secret until someone researches it and publishes it online. That bit is hard to put into any mmo.

Ostaff

@Farlander don't think I care much for the scarcity part of the resources, but I definitely love it when they make material deposits seasonal or only available during certain environmental conditions with depleting deposits that refill after time.

And I do like the having to study the item part to see its stats, which they already seem to be implementing on found magical items.

Tuoni

Back in days the crafting was meaningful also in WoW especially if we are talking about gear. In Vanilla people could actually craft BiS gear and some ingredients were really hard to find. At the moment there is not much point to craft other things than consumables or few cosmetics, roughly said ofc. However, in Shadowlands Blizzard is going to focus more on crafting which sounds nice and is more than welcome change. Anyway, perhaps my point is that when you have a serious goals to achieve as a crafter that is what it keeps the system also interesting, too simplified or boring system just pushes players away from that activity.

Rare and seasonal resources are always a really nice bonus, however, those are not just related to crafters and are a matter of gatherers as well, perhaps even more. Typically crafters gather as well, at least a little bit, but dedicated crafters also tries to find ways so they need to do gathering as less as possible. I struggle with crafting daily in Albion when I try to find ways to make money with crafting. It is not easy task when in most cases the resources are more expensive than the crafted items and finding the profitable things to craft takes time and changes also very often. I hope this will not be the situation in Fractured.

Donner

@Farlander I would love for there to be secret blueprints. Something that would give someone who takes time to research and experiment an edge over others. Or even give you first hand knowledge and its up to you to share it.

I also am not a fan of scarcity of resources, but I would like if resources (or at least rare resources) had special traits if used in a crafting recipe.

One thing I feel like automatic crafting benches take away is the feeling of accomplishment from the crafting itself, unless I am playing a game like satisfactory.

Farlander

I hated the rare resources in SWG usually because I didn't get them lol. The thing about rare though is that it is not plentiful. If something in the crafting genre doesn't impose some kind of hurdle that must be overcome then it doesn't become something you can make your niche in. Everyone will be able to do it and thus crafters will only be necessary for the lazy or those who just don't have the time nor want to make the time. Since knowledge will only open up crafting options that give different, not better, stats to your items, then there will not be any higher tier stuff. No items will be able to handle all situations.

There are also no secrets in mmos. At least not until they are revealed for the first time. Once someone breaks a code on a recipe they will become widely known. So only the players paving the way will have the excitement of the secret formula experimenting.