People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday
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There needs to be rare drops* or someway meaningless loot tables or otherwise there won't be much point to kill any dangerous mobs, creatures or bosses.
*Rare drops can be special resources for crafting, recipes, enchant ingredients, vanity items (trophies, decorations, skins...), pets and mounts [or puppies which can be "craft" (raised and tamed) for pets/mounts]... Basically anything which intrests players, but still keeping player-driven economy and crafting in mind.
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If I had to wager my own guess.. I'd guess common gear will be of "broad spectrum"... bit of each stat, bit of each resistance...
Further tweaking this gear will require more effort and more materials, for maximum tweaking more rare materials will be needed.
More tweaked gear will become "specialised gear".. uber fire resistance armor... or fully maxed out fire damage.. stuff like that.
It makes more sense for common gear to be broad spectrum, so people can start off easy, and do a bit of everything, but to head out against specific hard monsters, they will need to specialize those particular stats that are good vs this monster type.
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Yeah, that would make sense. But until it’s fleshed out, I’ll take them at face value with no rare gear.
Would be cool if they could do an entire design doc on purely progression and what their plans for it are. I know they’ve dabbled into it with spotlights, but something a little more
I imagine a lot of it will have to do with territory control and city management late game.
Interestingly, another game I am following is running into the same thing. How do we get players to care about progression... without unbalancing the scales between new and old players. Infinity battlescape currently has no progression outside of a match, every match starts from 0 (kind of like a moba). But they also understand there needs to be more.
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If gearing is only about horizontal progression, it will feel a really underwhelming and unrewarding system. This will also have straight impact for crafting, making both aspects "nice to have sideactivities" at most. That is why I personally hope we will see some vertical progression with both aspects, even the gaps between tiers would be small.
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Concordo
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@Tuoni said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
If gearing is only about horizontal progression, it will feel a really underwhelming and unrewarding system. This will also have straight impact for crafting, making both aspects "nice to have sideactivities" at most. That is why I personally hope we will see some vertical progression with both aspects, even the gaps between tiers would be small.
you could just consider gearing up for each individual difficult enemy as an individual vertical progression... hundreds of single, vertical progressions... coz u wont be able to take down some uber flame demon guy with your base gear if he is hurling giant fireballs at you. You will need to build specific gear for that fight and vertically progress to that boss itself. Horizontal progression could be viewed as many small, unrelated vertical progressions if you really think about it.
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For me vertical progression games feel a bit "lame". People gear up, kill lower geared player and go around bragging how they are pros. Lame...
Horizontal progression game, where everything depends on your knowledge and skill, how you will make you deck and know how to use it... that on the other hand is awesome.
This is why I'm following Fractured MMO. Because it's going in this direction.
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@Xzait Yeah sure you could think it that way, but it just does not sound enough intresting or practical. People would need to carry several gear sets with them just to be prepared every kind of scenarios and situations what might cross their journey.
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@Gothix said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
For me vertical progression games feel a bit "lame". People gear up, kill lower geared player and go around bragging how they are pros. Lame...
Horizontal progression game, where everything depends on your knowledge and skill, how you will make you deck and know how to use it... that on the other hand is awesome.
This is why I'm following Fractured MMO. Because it's going in this direction.
But now you are giving an example where gears have a huge power gap. I have not seen here a single person who has wished that would happen. If vertical progression offers only small advantage, then that does not automatically determine the result of fight, and it will still be about skills.
And as an sidenote, you are generalizing, that people who favors vertical progression are those who kills lower geared players and brags about it. I have personally seen very little that kind of behaviour tbh. This is more like player type kind of thing rather than bound to any progression methods.
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@Tuoni said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
@Xzait Yeah sure you could think it that way, but it just does not sound enough intresting or practical. People would need to carry several gear sets with them just to be prepared every kind of scenarios and situations what might cross their journey.
Then invest in a game that is advertised as vertical progression, instead of one that has been marketed as horizontal progression from the very beginning. From what you are saying, you will never be interested in a horizontal progression game. You aren't supposed to be prepared for anything and everything. You need to be smart with your limited inventory slots. You will probably only carry 2 sets of gear at any given time; one for the specific boss class enemy you are about to hunt down, and a general set of gear that will be at least a little useful for any situation.
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Yeah, it really boils down to knowing what kind of game you backed lol. As I’ve said, I’m normally into vertical progression... but I know what I backed and I’m willing to give DS their shot at making the game they envision
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@Xzait Actually when I backed there was some vertical progression planned with abilities and that part changed later for example. And you do not actually know much what I want from games, so you should not say anything about that tbh.
It seams that people are dividing progression to two categories, horizontal and vertical, even there can be any kind of combination between these two extremes.
I am trying to point out the risks what horizontal character progression can cause, and I have examined this especially from RPG point of view and what this can mean for longevity of the game.
I know some people are worried about vertical progression, because they want PvP to be as equal as possible. Small vertical differencies does not change that much, simply because what really matters is number of players in parties and how those people are playing together. So, with or without vertical differencies, most of the PvP situations wont be equal or fair anyway. Even in Albion where gear really matters, it is still totally secondary matter in open world.
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If the differences are minimal, maybe you can just pretend there’s a small boost on your gear ^^
Cheeky response, I know. But at this point we will have to agree to disagree haha. Seems everything has come full circle
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@Tuoni said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
@Xzait Actually when I backed there was some vertical progression planned with abilities and that part changed later for example. And you do not actually know much what I want from games, so you should not say anything about that tbh.
It seams that people are dividing progression to two categories, horizontal and vertical, even there can be any kind of combination between these two extremes.
I am trying to point out the risks what horizontal character progression can cause, and I have examined this especially from RPG point of view and what this can mean for longevity of the game.
I know some people are worried about vertical progression, because they want PvP to be as equal as possible. Small vertical differencies does not change that much, simply because what really matters is number of players in parties and how those people are playing together. So, with or without vertical differencies, most of the PvP situations wont be equal or fair anyway. Even in Albion where gear really matters, it is still totally secondary matter in open world.
From your comments, it is pretty obvious you don't want a completely horizontal progression game.
horizontal and vertical progression are so different, it wouldn't be possible to make a game that is half of each.
Examining this game from a pure RPG perspective probably isn't the best way to judge this game. Yes, it has RPG elements, but it will be missing a few of the core elements for a typical RPG. You won't be levelling up for example, and gaining stats. You wont have typical boss fights or a set story, you make your own story and fight only what you want to. There aren't planned to be many NPC's and the economy will be player driven. It is a completely different game to any typical RPG out there. The only 2 elements this has of an RPG, is that you create and play as a character in a virtual world... and you can kill monsters for materials to craft and use gear. They are the only elements of an RPG that i can think of at least.
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@Xzait said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
From your comments, it is pretty obvious you don't want a completely horizontal progression game.
horizontal and vertical progression are so different, it wouldn't be possible to make a game that is half of each.
Oh really.. Of course you can have system where you can progress in both directions, like the first planned ability system is a very good example, few steps vertical and a lot in horizontal. This comment is so absurd, that I would really like to know why it is not possible?
Examining this game from a pure RPG perspective probably isn't the best way to judge this game.
Well I have not judge the whole game, just pointed the possible risks related for pure horizontal character progression.
Yes, it has RPG elements, but it will be missing a few of the core elements for a typical RPG. You won't be levelling up for example, and gaining stats. You wont have typical boss fights or a set story, you make your own story and fight only what you want to. There aren't planned to be many NPC's and the economy will be player driven. It is a completely different game to any typical RPG out there. The only 2 elements this has of an RPG, is that you create and play as a character in a virtual world... and you can kill monsters for materials to craft and use gear. They are the only elements of an RPG that i can think of at least.
Okay, one more time, I have talked about character progression and RPG elements related for that. So I have not talked about the other aspects of the game like storytelling, NPCs, economy...
It seams that you are guiding the coversation to wrong direction, maybe unintentionally, I do not know. In any case you are not getting my point and where my concerns actually points, so there is no reason to continue.
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@Tuoni as soon as you have any vertical progression, unless it is absolutely minimal and provides no change to balance (or it is gearing for a specific fight using advantageous gear), it isnt horizontal progression anymore. They are polar opposites... you cannot have both at once, just like you can not have a magnet that is both positive and negative on the same face.
The only thing that should be vertical progression in a horizontal progression game, would be having gear equipped vs having nothing equipped. Any more than that, and it isnt horizontal progression anymore, as people with the highest tier gear or maxed out lvl skills/abilities wont be able to be beaten by a player that is only 1/4 of the way there in a 1 v 1 fight, unless the maxed out player has no skill or just stands there and takes it.
The biggest focus this game is going to have seems to be the knowledge system. the concept of it seems like a solid core for a horizontal progression game. Knowledge and preparedness will be power in this game, not huge stats, levels and legendary gear (like almost every other RPG in existence).
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@Tuoni The big difference with games like Fractured is that progression isn't just about combat. At least, so long as you aren't just constantly locked into fighting and nothing else, which should be something even the demons avoid. Perhaps the most unique thing about Fractured is that it takes a world with more horizontal progression (some minor vertical, yeah) and offers a chance for people to actually build up stuff without the expectation of constant raids. There's maybe a couple other games that seem to have potential toward that.
If all anyone cares about is fighting, there's that to do. Supposedly PvP is the goal for many, and the fighting shouldn't get stale just because you can't go out and get a gear advantage. The PvE combat might, but that's only a portion of the PvE in this game, and not really the progression aspect as much as the rest of things.
Personally, I hope both work well, and everyone has a lot of fun. I know that nothing will ever please everyone, but there's a huge under-served market for that slightly less hectic community progression... one which is far more feasible when everyone is on relatively equal footing. There's no reason why every game must follow the same lines ignoring the same people.
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@Xzait So with your argument, what DS first planned with the ability system (same as now, but with 3 different power tiers) was changed from vertical system to horizontal system? The same horizontal ability progression is still there regardless is there any vertical or not. And btw there is going to be attribute nodes in talent tree which increase your power, so with your logic that part of the game is vertical too, because we can not have both in the same game... Don't you realize how cribble is your argument that games can not have both kind of progressions in use?
Actually it does not matter if you do not understand my point, it is enough that developers do:
Specter said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
@grofire The devs are aware that with the removal of spell ranks, Fractured might not have enough progression systems to give the players something to work towards. It's something they will monitor during future test phases.