@Gothix said in Marketing as important part of early development:
Ashes of Creation is doing poorly because they changed their game design from originally promoted one, not because they hyped it too early.
Yeah, I agree. They basically started unexpectedly to develop another game, which pushed the MMORPG project further. That was 'a slap on the face' for all the backers who would not care less of that BR gamemode. That was low move..
Here is a another article, which also editorialize how developers needs to know their target audience and take these points count in their marketing strategy.
When should I start marketing my indie game?
"..often, indie studios tend to think of it as some stuff you have to do in the final months just before release in order to improve sales. But that is a huge (if surprisingly common) mistake: in our opinion, you should keep marketing in mind since day 1.
"One of our mantras is that marketing starts at the design table."
"If you start your marketing strategy from the very beginning of the development process you can have an accurate portrait of your audience, identify risks and opportunities, work on a communication strategy, and start to build up hype once you decide to announce the world you are working on something."
@Logain said in Marketing as important part of early development:
@Gothix said in Marketing as important part of early development:
Ashes of Creation is doing poorly because they changed their game design from originally promoted one, not because they hyped it too early.
@Tuoni said in Marketing as important part of early development:
(...)Begin your marketing campaign the moment you have something that illustrates the fundamental mechanics and look of your game(...)
That's the point though, this is too early in development, so some of what we have n ow is bound to change and that upsets people. Hence why a good amount agrees to wait with hype, till after most fundamental designs are fixed.
So you decided to take one sentence out of the context and then refer for that? Here is the whole piece, it explains a little bit better what illustrate fundamental mechanics actually means in this situation. 
"Begin your marketing campaign the moment you have something that illustrates the fundamental mechanics and look of your game. Whether it's one finished level, a mocked up (quality) screenshot using Photoshop, or a small demo that displays a nuance of your game, it is imperative that you start generating hype as soon as there is somethingâanythingâworth showing to the public. From that point forward you should be promoting the progress of your game on a semi-regular basis."
And here is another one:
"1. Begin before the beginning: Donât wait for the game to be released to start marketing it. The earlier you doâââthe better. Run your social media, reach out to press & influencers, create a websiteâââjust make sure to keep all those channels updated. An empty Instagram account will do you no good."
@Specter said in Marketing as important part of early development:
Thed devs are working on marketing Fractured. It's one of the reasons why they've hired @znirf.
Okay, good to know. 
I was reasoning that something like this could be planned, but I was not sure about znirf's exact job description.
May I ask you @Znirf , what kind of marketing plans you have for future? Just a sneak peek at this point would be more than enough. Or is it still a secret? 
EDIT: Okay, even you are officially a Community Manager, I found this one from introduction: "just got a master in Digital Marketing"
@Belligero said in Marketing as important part of early development:
@Jetah said in Marketing as important part of early development:
you never want to hype a game 2 years before release. you start that 6 months before when 99% of the game is settled and wont change (baring some major redesigns).
we were suppose to get more content pills but that stopped for a while. we should be getting Kickstarter backer updates. until DS hires a community manager that can rally the developers to release content, we just have to wait.
I did love the full Dev show that Crowfall did. they had 1 dev from each aspect of the game display some samples or explain parts they were working on.
I agree with this.
It's stupid to hype it up too early and then run out of steam through the development process. Just wait until you have an actual game.@Tuoni said in Marketing as important part of early development:
@Jetah said in Marketing as important part of early development:
you never want to hype a game 2 years before release. you start that 6 months before when 99% of the game is settled and wont change (baring some major redesigns).
Never? Like Albion Online, Ashes of Creation or Crowfall did (just mention few)? But I guess you know better than developers of these studios..
And look how well they're doing...
Albion Online had steady grow during test phases so they handled the marketing part quite well. They made last minute mistakes with game designing, which leaded to loose players drastically. Now they made smart move, they fixed a lot of those design problems and at the same time changed their business model to F2P, so they got kind of new start.
Gaming development and the marketing has changed a lot in past years. The biggest reason for this is programs like Kickstarter or Crowdfunding. Now gaming studios NEEDS to start make heavy marketing really early on and before the program is even starting. If they do not do that, their funding program will fail. So yes, you need to start hype in many cases over 2 years before release, simply because the development takes so much time when creating a MMORPG.
Ashes of Creation and Crowfall did both a superb results with their funding programs. That well they did it. Afterwards both studios have suffered from delays, because of design changes made by developers and now marketing persons have challenging task to maintain the already build fan base and at the same time get new people interested.
@Jetah said in Marketing as important part of early development:
i haven't
Okay, this explains everything.
@Yaito said in Progressionsystems:
With Player-Knowlegde I meant more something like a System where you need more Knowledge in order to do better in something. That means if you want into a new zone you most likly had a hard time suriving. With learning more about the monsters and trying out other equipment you could become way better at suriving and killing the monster in the zone.
I guess this could happen in Fractured too, but it is a problem that you can find guides for every activity nowadays. Even there would be hard content, the first people will struggle with that, but those who comes later can easily find tips from net or youtube for example. Situation is even worse in games like Fractured, because most of the content is tested by players before release. So there is very little secrets out there.
I Also like equipment that give you new Skills or maybe game mechanic changing effects.
I would like to see abilities on gear pieces too, but I have understood there won't be any. However, I hope too, that there would be at least some kind of augments, which can change the used abilities a little bit.
I would like a more relistic approch where only enemies with swords drop swords. Any enemy should drop stuff that is needed at least to earn some money.
In Fractured there will be very little item drops from mobs and creatures. Humanoids are dropping mainly ingame currency and from animals/monsters you can get raw resources which can be used in different craftings. So the idea is that all or most of the items ingame are player-crafted and not dropped from mobs. So yeah, loot tables will be very realistic.
I like a linear wealth progression system as long that there is always something you can't afford just like in real life.
Yes, this is important, that you need to see a lot of effort to achieve the best items. People needs goals to achieve.
There is so much stuff that seems wrong with most MMORPG's that I could go on forever but a lot of things seem to be improved in Fractured.
I totally agree.
More interesting sampling from Intel developer zone. Marketing campaign goals to build, maintain and grow your fan base. There is no room for breaks if you want good results.
"Following Up
Your marketing campaign goal is simpleâto build and maintain an adoring fan base. Make it easy to discover your game, using social media to post updates. Post on social media daily, if possible, even if youâre just passing something along. Think of it as the Iâm alive circuit for your marketing efforts. Be active in forums and blogs, and participate in game jams and other events. Show up at your local game development community events. Theyâre desperate for the help and welcome new faces as well as old veterans."
Convert Visitors into Active Fans
When you create and update promotional materials and regularly post a blog, you systematically convert casual visitors into paying customers. Even better is when you upgrade your customers into active fans. Regular news about your game and your company is vital to your growth. Nurture your fan base with personal touches, and respond quickly to questions. But donât just post and respondâdrive the conversation with dialogue starters. Make fans feel like part of the process by seeking input on certain decisions. And remember to remain professional when responding to trolls and critics. Simply explain the reason for your decision, but donât throw gasoline on the fire and engage in a two-week flame war.
@Jetah said in Marketing as important part of early development:
@Tuoni
problem is marketing has a cost. DS can't spend half their budget on marketing right now when it could be put into the game.
You just do not stop to amaze me. All of those shared articles or videos are about low expense or zero budget marketing, which are especially targeted for small indie gaming studios. On top of that who talked about 50/50 budget..
"Plan to spend at least as much time and energy on marketing activities as you do on development."
It seams you have not read a single one of my posts or shared articles properly, but still you are keen to comment..
Knowledge
Planned knowledge system sounds really interesting because the focus is on horizontal progression. There is small vertical progression build inside abilities with 6 tasks and 3 different tiers. Hopefully works great in practise, because at least on paper it looks very good.
Lore
I would like to see a lot of lore and at least some background progression. However, usually sandbox games are less lore-driven and there is more focus on players/guilds and their stories. Still it would be nice to see some progression and changes within expansions.
Equipment
This is something I am a little bit concerned about and how it will be implemented. I know Fractured goals to low tier gear system, where it will be relatively easy to replace the basic gear. That is kind of a nice thought in full loot game, however, if the gear progression is mostly horizontal, then there might not be enough to goal for crafters or generally all players as wearers. How devs will implement this, I am interested to see.
I am a little bit confused too. Chaos and beastmen does not go so well together, especially if you want to see all the lands burn. Demons would be much reasonable option or why not humans too. Beastmen are more like peaceful, cooperative and PvE centric race. So I guess you could open up a little bit more what you have actually in your mind.
@OwlsaneGaming said in Marketing as important part of early development:
There is no need to advertise fractured atm as it first in the alpha phase so there is no substance of content / storyline /etc. Basically if we advertise the game right now it's like saying "Hey guys, we're making a game. Nothing more to say but come check it out".
They can imo begin to advertise it when the game is in the beta phase.
I presume you did not read any of those shared articles either.. Anyhow, how you would like to see Fractured advertised more during upcoming testphases? You can think this from beta testphase point of view.
@Tuoni said in Marketing as important part of early development:
But yeah I know, it does not matter how much I show evidence how the marketing should be done or what kind of improvements could be considered if you want to be more efficient. People won't change their opinions, even they do not have much experience of the whole matter.
I want add to this, that there is nothing wrong if people have own opinions and it is hard to anyone change their mind no matter what. And I am now speaking more generally and that incluedes also myself. And my intend is not actually change anyones opinion, I just want to justify my opinion to Fracured developers with references of what industry experts have said about marketing.
With this thread I more like hoped we could discuss about different marketing possibilities and ideas, so we could give developers something to think about. Maybe they have talked about most of the things already and made a marketing strategy which suits best for them. However, always there is this chance, that something has not thought yet and maybe because of lack of time.
Here is good video related for indie game marketing tips with low budget. Speaker is IndieGameGirl Emmy Jonassen, a indie game marketing specialist.
@Sindariya said in Marketing as important part of early development:
@Tuoni said in Marketing as important part of early development:
@Sindariya said in Marketing as important part of early development:
@Tuoni said in Marketing as important part of early development:
Marketing your indie game
"When to Begin Marketing Your Game
Before we get into specifics, it is important to dispel the common notion that marketing can only begin after a game is released. As most of you already know, a game draws most of its sales within the first few weeks, and even days, of release. If the proper channels don't already know about your title by the time it's launched, your sales during this critical window are going to suffer.So, instead of waiting until the eleventh hour, follow this general rule:
Begin your marketing campaign the moment you have something that illustrates the fundamental mechanics and look of your game.
Whether it's one finished level, a mocked up (quality) screenshot using Photoshop, or a small demo that displays a nuance of your game, it is imperative that you start generating hype as soon as there is somethingâanythingâworth showing to the public. From that point forward you should be promoting the progress of your game on a semi-regular basis."Yes and they have done that already. So whats the point? What they should change now is just showing their progress more regulary, like every month in the news, because those news are published by plenty online magazine which are read by plenty of players.
There has been lack with promoting part quite long for now. Communication between community dropped almost to unexistence, news are quite rare nowadays and especially Spotlight Series has not seen for long time. Devs' focus has been in test phases, but still they have forgot promote, market and communicate. It gives wrong signal outwards and I hope we can see some improvements in near future.
What would be better place to boost marketing and promote your product than just before new testphase? So I suggest DS to invest some effort and resources on those milestones to get more backers.
It's not like they stopped marketing. Sure they could do more at the moment but that would be the wrong timing in my opinion.
No they have not stopped marketing and I have not said so either. Here is just some people thinking that nothing needs to be done atm with marketing. I have posted now several articles/comments (with references) from real gaming industry professionals who all says totally opposite, and whom I have used to cover my arguments and original post. It is not hard guess whom word values more, random people or marketing experts with indie game industry experience. 
But yeah I know, it does not matter how much I show evidence how the marketing should be done or what kind of improvements could be considered if you want to be more efficient. People won't change their opinions, even they do not have much experience of the whole matter.
@Xzoviac said in Marketing as important part of early development:
@Tuoni I think streaming on twitch and youtube videos , and getting some of the more popular mmo youtubers to review fractured (invite them to the alpha to test) would bring in lots of attention, i will post some of the youtubers I watch, I don't really watch twitch- so cant help with streamers
Rhykker - I watch this guy for info on Arpgs mostly diablo 3 builds, 480,275 subscribers
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRl31PWkfF0a3j3hiDRaCGATheLazyPeon - I find this guy funny and I like watching his MMO reviews, 459,466 subscribers
https://www.youtube.com/user/ALazyPeonMMOhut- does live streams with developers and is pretty informative good collection of mmos and a website they could advertise fractured on, 432,473 subscribers
https://www.youtube.com/user/MMOHutif Fractured invite these 3 people that's a potential of 1.5million more people seeing the game just on subscribers , a free alpha account to get them to advertise for you would be worth it IMO
Yes it is important to get famous YouTubers interested of Fractured and at least make that one review. That one video can only reach about half million players so it is definitely worth it. Of course if some of them interests to start playing more regulary, that would be even better. It is reasonable to make a review when there is enough working content, and lets see if this will be in A2,B1 or B2.
I follow LazyPeon too and I really hope he will check out Fractured at some point, and I do not actually see why he would not. Btw, you could post your Youtuber suggestions here if you have not done that yet. Community call youtubers
@Jetah said in Marketing as important part of early development:
i think we're good for a while. the game needs to be developed. DS doesn't have the staff nor budget to be constantly developing and advertising the game while in Alpha.
I really think it's a bad time to push advertising because the game isn't a game, it's a system of test.
That is the common mistake what developers can make. Stop marketing and focus only on development.
Here is another article pick up from Intel Dev Zone: Get Ready, Get Noticed, Get Big: A Practical Guide to Marketing Your Indie Game
There is a lot of information (from professionals) about indie games marketing and how it is crucial to keep pushing marketing through the whole development process. They also highlights the importance of communication and updates between developers and community. That is one part of marketing too. Here is few points taken from article:
Why marketing matter
Intelâs Patrick DeFreitas is a partner marketing manager who outreaches to the independent gaming community. For him, the answer to the question, âWhen should I start marketing?â is obvious: IMMEDIATELY!
âIâve seen reports that over 4,000 new games are launching every year,â he recently explained. âThatâs 11 games a day!â He suggests you start marketing your title early. âEvery day you let pass allows another stack of competitors to fall into your same genre, attracting the same customers, pulling for the same share of wallet,â Patrick explained. âYou must decide how much time to devote to marketing. If you spend âxâ hours developing your title, you must put in an equal amount of time toward its promotion.â
Think of marketing as any activity that starts a conversation and builds a relationship with the gaming community. Youâre probably marketing without realizing it. Developer blogs, websites, social media, gamer- and game-developer forums, video trailers, and a host of other tasks let you lift the curtain on your gameâs development to promote its progress and features. Every chat with a potential customer is a marketing activity. Along the way, youâll be able to gather feedback to help iterate designs and even extend the shelf life of your title.
Maintain Your Marketing Momentum
Once you have a playable demo, youâre ready to step into the limelight either as an exhibitor or a vendor. Or create your own event. For example, Inc. Magazine has an eight-point primer on staging your own event. Some of their advice may seem costly, but many examples donât require a big budget. The key is to plug away on social media with continual build-up and updates, via your Twitter handle, Facebook page, and blog posts.
Common Mistakes and Pitfalls to Avoid
Keep these points in mind while working on your marketing activities:
Establish a schedule of marketing activities and commit to it. Donât stop.*
Plan to spend at least as much time and energy on marketing activities as you do on development. Some experts advise that you may drop to a ratio of one-third development, two-thirds marketing.
I also hope we will see some kind of breeding system, which is related for animal hunting and taming. Also there can be animal pups as rare drops from animals/creatures. Breeding can be a thing with raising cattle, poultry, mounts and pets.
One nice low expanse marketing trick would be a DevBlog. People loves to read those and I can almost see @Prometheus keeping one.
"A development blog: While development blogs are less essential than a website and a strong social media presence, gamers and developers alike love to read about the personal struggles and triumphs associated with making a game. Keep it personal, as if you're speaking directly to your readers. Humanize yourself and viewers will connect with and appreciate your plight. Post as frequently as necessary, but try to avoid posting about every little bug fix or new art piece. It's enough simply to prove that your game is coming along."
@Sindariya said in Marketing as important part of early development:
@Tuoni said in Marketing as important part of early development:
Marketing your indie game
"When to Begin Marketing Your Game
Before we get into specifics, it is important to dispel the common notion that marketing can only begin after a game is released. As most of you already know, a game draws most of its sales within the first few weeks, and even days, of release. If the proper channels don't already know about your title by the time it's launched, your sales during this critical window are going to suffer.So, instead of waiting until the eleventh hour, follow this general rule:
Begin your marketing campaign the moment you have something that illustrates the fundamental mechanics and look of your game.
Whether it's one finished level, a mocked up (quality) screenshot using Photoshop, or a small demo that displays a nuance of your game, it is imperative that you start generating hype as soon as there is somethingâanythingâworth showing to the public. From that point forward you should be promoting the progress of your game on a semi-regular basis."Yes and they have done that already. So whats the point? What they should change now is just showing their progress more regulary, like every month in the news, because those news are published by plenty online magazine which are read by plenty of players.
There has been lack with promoting part quite long for now. Communication between community dropped almost to unexistence, news are quite rare nowadays and especially Spotlight Series has not seen for long time. Devs' focus has been in test phases, but still they have forgot promote, market and communicate. It gives wrong signal outwards and I hope we can see some improvements in near future.
What would be better place to boost marketing and promote your product than just before new testphase? So I suggest DS to invest some effort and resources on those milestones to get more backers.