Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread
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@Rife said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
Let's first talk about why the criminal system is too punishing. I think it's obvious that people who have 0 karma or a really low amount of negative karma shouldn't be punished too harshly, the minimum gold shouldn't be 2k, it should definitely be lower since some people have negative karma just from knocking down players without even executing them.
Completely agreed here. When merely flagging up triggers a bounty, the system is too punitive, too quickly.
But while that's a definite point to fix, it's not the main crux of the issue. The issue is that we're locking people out of the game. We should never lock people out of the game for playing a certain playstyle. You only lock people out of the game when they exploit/cheat. This is basically lumping the ganking/criminal playstyle as the same as cheaters/exploiters, which is a huge no no.
There are distinctions to be made between gankers/griefers and cheaters/exploiters, but the former can kill a game as surely as the latter can. Many sandbox MMOs have been killed by widespread griefing and ganking.
Wanting to constrain that playstyle through mechanical means and systemic deterrences doesn't require you to vilify "criminals"; it just requires recognition that, if left to their own devices unchecked, they will drive away players if history is any indication.
Like I mentioned in previous posts, just make them farm the gold if they cant pay, this way, they can still enjoy other content while essentially being locked out of all forms of PvP content until they pay their bail. Mind you, they can already do this with the current system, we're just now making it so that they have the option to do PvE content for gold if they don't have enough to pay their current bail, instead of just locking them out so that they'd play on their alts, or quit playing the game, till the bail time is over. This way we can also easily balance how strict the system is based on the bounty price. Obviously, when inflation happens and people start to hold more gold, the bounty system's prices should be adjusted accordingly.
I'm open to this, as I support the most minimally-stringent method to constrain widespread ganking and griefing on Syndesia. If the bail is prohibitively expensive and the effort involved is enough to keep the "criminal" population a relative minority, then I'm happy to ditch player jail-time.
But as I said previously, I don't think this will work because I don't believe it will be prohibitively difficult to raise the bail personally, call for bail payment from allies/friends/guildmates, or logging into an alt to wait out the time.
Not to mention that your proposal allows the ganker/griefer in question to actively play the game; what makes you think that making the character farm the gold will be so unpleasant as to deter future misconduct?
So that solves the "too punishing" side of things. Now let's discuss why it's not "punishing enough". I think here @LonelyCookie raised a point, whereby the system only happens when a criminal is caught after the deed. There is nothing being done for the victim. This is why good-aligned players want a stricter system, because they feel like the only way they are protected is if the criminal system has an insane punishment system. This shouldn't actually be the case.
The problem right now relies on the bounty hunter system. We call it a bounty hunter system, but people who sign up for bounty hunters are actually called sheriffs. Sheriffs are not the same as bounty hunters. One is basically hunting criminals for personal gain, while the other is actually there to protect those who need protection. What good aligned players need is a protection system. So we don't need bounty hunters, we really just need sheriffs.
Basically what we need is a new tab on Socials that allow players to find Sheriffs to protect them when they are farming. Basically a tab that lists active Sheriffs who are online, and players can message Sheriffs asking for protection in return for a percentage of the loot they make for example.
This is a win-win situation for all. Players now get protection. Sheriffs and Criminals both get to PvP and have things more exciting.
Tl;DR : Criminal system is both too punishing and not giving enough protection. Solutions :
- Abolish jail time, make criminals farm for bail if they cant bail/dont have friends to bail them while being locked out of all pvp content
- Protection system that allows players to easily get in touch with Sheriffs to protect them while farming in return for some compensation if they so choose.
Respectfully, I don't agree with this at all.
Your proposal here is essentially that people who don't want to be griefed or ganked or killed should simply spam help requests in game chat and rely on Good Samaritans to keep the "criminal" element in check.
I'm not aware of a single meaningful example where this sort've system has ever worked. In my personal experience, the Good Samaritan to Criminal ratio is always heavily lopsided in favor of criminals because people generally are (1) self-interested and (2) more inclined to engage in escapist "bad behavior" in a video game as opposed to committing time, effort, and energy to working as some sort've pre-emptive bodyguard/mall cop.
"Pre-emptive" security for people should come in the form of allies/friends/guild mates. Bounty hunters should exist for goal-oriented, financially-motivated player-killers after the fact.
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@mansair said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
Simple: the bounty hunter needs to move the prisoner with a wagon jail to the jail.
Same gold, same time in prison, same karma system.
This is ok only if all pvp'ers also have to move their victim with wagon to their plot or city to get any of the equipment or items off of them. Even Steven. Or do you just want special treatment as a misunderstood murderer?
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@OlivePit Please stop equating "all PvPers" to "murderers"... you do realize that bounty hunters are also PvPers right?
Actually @mansair 's idea complete with your idea of criminals needing to move their "victims" somewhere could be really fun because then groups of bounty hunters would want to work together and groups of criminals would also want to work together, but then it would turn more into a pvp system rather than a type of punishment system. Not sure what route Dyanmight wants to take.
Now for feedback on the current changes made in today's patch:
I really like the KP requirements and Karma requirements changes made to this system so far. This also means that players who are intentionally trying to troll/grief can't just keep making new characters to go evil and harass new players, they need to spend actual time on the character to get a certain amount of knowledge first.
The lessening of the minimum sentence is also good.
That's all I have to say for now, will continue testing!
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@Alexian said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
Your proposal here is essentially that people who don't want to be griefed or ganked or killed should simply spam help requests in game chat and rely on Good Samaritans to keep the "criminal" element in check.
I'm not aware of a single meaningful example where this sort've system has ever worked. In my personal experience, the Good Samaritan to Criminal ratio is always heavily lopsided in favor of criminals because people generally are (1) self-interested and (2) more inclined to engage in escapist "bad behavior" in a video game as opposed to committing time, effort, and energy to working as some sort've pre-emptive bodyguard/mall cop.
"Pre-emptive" security for people should come in the form of allies/friends/guild mates. Bounty hunters should exist for goal-oriented, financially-motivated player-killers after the fact.I'm not so sure about that, do you have a list of games where this system has tried and failed to work?
The other problem right now is that most of the non-criminal aligned players have stopped playing the game.
In my view, a system like a party finder for sheriffs would work much better than players having to ask to call for help on the global chat. I think alot of casual/solo's would rather much use these kind of systems, than actually type in global chat asking for help.
The Pre-emptive security you mention are for non solos, whereas solos and people who play in small groups maybe would definitely benefit from the system.
Of course it's not going to work right now, but I can definitely see it working in a more thriving population scenario.
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@Rife All I can say is that every vaguely-sandbox MMO I've ever played, from Mortal Online to Albion Online, has always had more active griefers and gankers than Good Samaritans actively hunting those griefers and gankers down on behalf of the griefed and ganked. (Otherwise griefing and ganking wouldn't be nearly as lamented in the sandbox MMO community...)
Do you have a list of games where your proposed system has been implemented and worked?
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@Alexian Yeah I dont have any examples either. Which is why I wanted to give the system a try.
Conversely, we can also just allow criminals to be bounty hunters too like what we discussed on discord.
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@Rife I support "criminals" being bounty hunters/hitmen/whatever; contracts should not be an inherently noble function. I should be able to play as a scheming politician who hires a notorious PKer to gank a merchant caravan or some such; there should be a market for such things.
