Ability Attributes and "Mana"
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Problem:
Right now all the Abilities have a mana cost. But they also seem to have a related attribute. Consider the following abilities:Eviscerate [Swordsmanship, STR-based damage, 300 mana]
Burning Pillar [Pyromancy, INT-based damage, 300 mana]A STR-based character generally has less access to STR-based abilities than an INT-based character has access to INT-based abilities. This seems unbalanced. STR-based characters should be just as good at using STR-based abilities as INT-based characters are at INT-based abilities.
Proposal
1: All characters have 1000 mana, and more INT does not increase it
2: All abilities have a related attribute
3: Higher values for the related attribute lower the mana cost of using the abilityConsider the characters Nukez (INT 20, STR 10), Tankz (INT 10, STR 20), and Midz (INT 15, STR 15)
Nukez high INT would lower the mana cost of Burning Pillar, since it is an INT-based ability. So maybe Nukez will only pay 100 mana for using it. But their low STR would not help them with Eviscerate.
Tankz would be the opposite - paying only 100 mana for Eviscerate, but paying 300 mana for Burning Pillar.
Midz would get an advantage for both, paying somewhere in the middle for both (like maybe 150 mana each).
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I agree there's a problem, and if the devs don't want to add another resource, I can see your solution working (albeit with a lot of changes to the knowledge tree and enchants).
I'd rather see a stamina resource introduced, though.
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Stamina can help. I worry that you'd need a different resource for every attribute. One big problem with my approach is that it makes INT not matter for everyone, but STR/CON matter for everyone because of HP.
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The game is set in a way that any dumb stat is bad. INT is not a "caster" skill, technically all stats are useful to every build.
So far this isn't always true, a caster can safely ignore DEX and many times also STR and CHA.Originally a caster could not ignore DEX because it gave movement speed. CHA gave more luck and luck was a lot more useful. There were 2 different life bars, one based on STR and one on CON.
Now after all the changes that happened, this paradigm is no longer working.
More than specializing even more the stats like it is proposed here, I would instead go back to the original intents.
I would roll back the increased mana regen on INT (which was moved from 1.5 to 2 per point) and instead give 1 mana regen per point to CHA. Also return CHA to 40 luck per point instead of 25.
I would increase the encumbrance on all armors, but have STR decrease encumbrance.
Give Dex a bonus to cooldown reduction.
Give perception a bonus to the zoom out limit like it was proposed in the other thread.This way, all attributes have a use for everyone.
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@spoletta Then why are melee classes forced to invest in int but caster-classes are not forced to invest in Str/Dex/Cha? The manareg talents are within the int-tree and also the border-talents (Perception/Intelligence [only caster specific atm, but 2 talents still missing]; Intelligence/Charisma [2/4 talents are clearly designed for casters]) are to a large extend not useful for melee classes. So the investment into the int-tree for manareg is clearly a must for most melee classes but don't offer any other good things like it does for the caster or mixed classes.
Proposal
Option 1a. Reduce the manareg bonus for int attribute. And increase the base-manareg for all chars a bit.
Option 1b. Add manareg bonus based on str/dex/int/per/cha (use highest value)
Option 1c. Keep it as it is.
2. Move the manareg talents into a new talent-tree, which can be used by all classes.
3. Design the border-talents of this new tree (e.g. Per/Manareg_tree,Manareg_tree/Cha) in a way that all classes (i.e. not only summoners/warlocks) can use them.. (e.g. reduced mana-costs; reduced precast-time; manareg_per_dmg; manasteal_per_dmg; manaremoval_per_dmg; etc)Moving talents into a new tree and make the old nodes empty (for the moment) shouldn't take much dev ressources or add critical balancing issues.
Your thoughts about this guys/girls?
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I honestly don't consider this a big issue, especially now that we have mana steal weapons.
The only potential issue I see with the INT tree is that it has 2 specific final talents, where normally this is only one.PER tree has one talent specific for bow users and a second applicable to any build
STR tree is the same, with one for two handed users and one for everyone
CON and CHA is unknown, because they are not fully implemented, but the existing CHA one is for everyone
DEX is a bit more restricted, with one specific for one handed users and one which works with many different classes but all physical
INT has one which is only for spell schools and one for staff users.I would be in favor of changing the staff specific talent to a more generic one.
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" now that we have mana steal weapons"
If melee has to use a specific piece of equipment to be able to use abilities, then ranged should also have to use a specific piece of equipment to be able to use abilities (or melee should be able to be competitive with ranged without melee using abilities but with ranged using abilities). The reliance on specific gear to have a viable build is a major red flag. Gear should make you better, it shouldn't make you viable.
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Casters can run/blink around and still regenerate mana while the melee without mana can't properly regenerate mana if they cant reach their targets. Problem is still, casters increase their ressource-pool(inplicitly due to manareg) when investing into their dmg-attribute and melee's can not.
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@MidniteArrow You don't need it, especially in pvp where the lifesteal enchant or the mana burn ones are better.
In pve though it helps a lot.
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@spoletta what does a fight between a tank and mage look like when both of them have a fully unlocked and configured set of abilities with no gear but a primitive weapon with no enchants?
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@MidniteArrow very boring.
The tank outheals the damage of the mage, but can't catch him or inflict meaningful damage.
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@spoletta That's surprising to the point of "show me".
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Let me guess, you never faced a dedicated CON/CHA tank build?
Those things are obnoxious, they reduce your damage by a lot and have huge health regens, not to mention that every 30 sec they heal half their max hp. They use very little amounts of mana to stay alive while they pepper you with fear/atrophy/confusion.
Problem is that they are useful only in pve, because in pvp you would simply ignore them.
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I've "been" a CON/CHA tank build. Gear always seemed really critical, especially for mana. That's why I'm skeptical. I believe you, I'd still like to see that in action without any gear except a primitive weapon. What I haven't seen is max KP without gear (because I spend most my time crafting / gathering). My intuition is that the INT-focused character will have a drastic advantage. But intuitions can be wrong.
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What are you using the mana for? You only need second wind every 30 sec, fear on cooldown and that's it. Maybe a shimmering sphere here and there. The INT caster will go out of mana way before you do.
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DPS. Longevity is great, but like you said, it doesn't end the fight. I don't expect the longevity will actually out-heal the incoming damage from the mage. But I could easily be wrong as I haven't really tested it.
My most recent build is CON/STR with CHA as not-a-dump-stat, so my memory might be faulty as it has been over a year.
As far as I can tell though, you are saying that there are some builds that just shouldn't use abilities. That seems really odd to me.
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A tank build is a pve build. If it ends in a fight with a pk mage, it shouldn't try to hit him, he will never manage to, pve builds are not made for mobility especially tanks.
Just dodge and outheal until you reach a safe area.
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But that is synonymous with "yes, there are balance issues for heavy-armor melee characters"
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Now, that may be ok, especially if there are things for those characters that are hard to kill but not very dangerous to do in PvP settings. Like move the cart, break the door, tank the legend, etc...
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@spoletta there is no law that tells us the only viable pvp-build is burst-dmg... why can't we have protection abilities or something like that, that forces players to actually fight against tank builds? to be honest i don't like the fixation on moba games and LOL and such things.. there is more out there and i think it would be great if different builds could play a role in pvp and not just burst-dmg or die
