Progressionsystems
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I would like to discuss here what you like about the Progressionsystems in Fractured and also what you don't like. I always feel like the Progression Systems make or break the MMORPG for me.
To name some categories I would like to talk about:Skill-
Equipment-
Passiv-Stat-
Player-Knowledge-
Environment-
Race -
World-
and Storyprogression.If you have some new concepts I also would like to hear them.
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@Yaito said in Progressionsystems:
I would like to discuss here what you like about the Progressionsystems in Fractured and also what you don't like. I always feel like the Progression Systems make or break the MMORPG for me.
To name some categories I would like to talk about:Skill-
Equipment-
Passiv-Stat-
Player-Knowledge-
Environment-
Race -
World-
and Storyprogression.If you have some new concepts I also would like to hear them.
Interesting post ill go first
What I like
Skills- Modifiable skills eg turning a single target long ranged burn attack in to a aura that burns everything near you diablo 3 rune mod style is a example of this that i enjoyed, I think it gives lots of options for different play styles
Equipment- As Equipment will eventually break (I believe), it probably cant have a huge impact in the game, I personally like Equipment that gives you new skills new spells, at the very least modify your look and maybe the style of your attacks (heavy gear gives you more clunky movements)
Passiv-Stat- I believe that once your stats are set that is it (for the moment), i hope that for a cost or visiting a certain shrine you can reset your stat points, having flexible ways to try different play styles is important to me , to keep the game interesting
Player-Knowledge-Learning new spells from another dimensions or dank dungeons, licking enough rocks, picking enough grass, poking enough trees, kicking enough cows, should all increase your ability in doing said activity, giving you achievements bragging rights, and progression, so after kicking 100 cows i can kick over a bigger badder cow and the old smaller cows will then fall over from my power
Environment- Elderscrolls online did this well, as quest interacted with the player the world changed, for example the giant asteroid being held up by a god started to fall on the city you are in, as the god became weaker, this really made me feel like i was part of the world my actions effecting my environment, I think spells bursting rocks freezing water electrifying water, turning sand in to quicksand using water spells so on, are amazing ways to improve pve, pvp, and strategy in the game
Race - more races are always good- especially for people who like to role play, humans should treat different races differently depending on the race and alignment, for example even if you are good lich a human quest giver should treat the lich with suspicion, maybe even giving them a different quest to someone who is a normal human for example
World- the world should imo be effected by the actions of the player base, if there is a massive war between demons and humans, greenlands could be ruined and turned to desert castles could be destroyed in ruin, these things will need to be fixed , or they will stay that way- the world should have consequences for our actions, if we destroy a entire forest and dont replant seeds the forests should disappear, if we mine to deep and you could open a hole to demon or some sleeping underground monstrosity- rulers kings and governors will need to police this kind of behavior to stop the day to day player destroying the world (if it gets to that point)
and Storyprogression.- quest that make you feel part of the world are important, but if its possible for players to give other players quests and set rewards, it would add to the immersion of the game, could be a great way to get players to interact with each other. - maybe im rebuilding a destroyed castle, and need foragers to bring me 1000s of rocks and ill pay in gold for their delivery
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Knowledge
Planned knowledge system sounds really interesting because the focus is on horizontal progression. There is small vertical progression build inside abilities with 6 tasks and 3 different tiers. Hopefully works great in practise, because at least on paper it looks very good.Lore
I would like to see a lot of lore and at least some background progression. However, usually sandbox games are less lore-driven and there is more focus on players/guilds and their stories. Still it would be nice to see some progression and changes within expansions.Equipment
This is something I am a little bit concerned about and how it will be implemented. I know Fractured goals to low tier gear system, where it will be relatively easy to replace the basic gear. That is kind of a nice thought in full loot game, however, if the gear progression is mostly horizontal, then there might not be enough to goal for crafters or generally all players as wearers. How devs will implement this, I am interested to see.
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With Player-Knowlegde I meant more something like a System where you need more Knowledge in order to do better in something. The MMO I played most was Raganrok Online. It was a simple Game but there where a lot of things that made Leveling Up realy Knowledge dependent. That means if you want into a new zone you most likly had a hard time suriving. With learning more about the monsters and trying out other equipment you could become way better at suriving and killing the monster in the zone. It is and was a hardcore grinding game but I always felt like there is still a faster way to earn expierence, therfor had fun for years.
I Also like equipment that give you new Skills or maybe game mechanic changing effects. Like an Armor that can not be melted from an Armor melting monster or a Sword that slows down demon monster etc.
When we Talk about equipment progression I always think about all the MMO's where you gain equipment for all Classes in all Areas. I would like a more relistic approch where only enemies with swords drop swords. Any enemy should drop stuff that is needed at least to earn some money. In that way I like a linear wealth progression system as long that there is always something you can't afford just like in real life. In a lot of Games more money does not change to much because you still need to reach a specific lvl an order to use the good stuff. You ever encountered a crafting tool that said sorry you need 2 year worth of expierence in order to buy me? No you buy it and then you start getting good with it.
There is so much stuff that seems wrong with most MMORPG's that I could go on forever but a lot of things seem to be improved in Fractured.
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@Yaito said in Progressionsystems:
With Player-Knowlegde I meant more something like a System where you need more Knowledge in order to do better in something. That means if you want into a new zone you most likly had a hard time suriving. With learning more about the monsters and trying out other equipment you could become way better at suriving and killing the monster in the zone.
I guess this could happen in Fractured too, but it is a problem that you can find guides for every activity nowadays. Even there would be hard content, the first people will struggle with that, but those who comes later can easily find tips from net or youtube for example. Situation is even worse in games like Fractured, because most of the content is tested by players before release. So there is very little secrets out there.
I Also like equipment that give you new Skills or maybe game mechanic changing effects.
I would like to see abilities on gear pieces too, but I have understood there won't be any. However, I hope too, that there would be at least some kind of augments, which can change the used abilities a little bit.
I would like a more relistic approch where only enemies with swords drop swords. Any enemy should drop stuff that is needed at least to earn some money.
In Fractured there will be very little item drops from mobs and creatures. Humanoids are dropping mainly ingame currency and from animals/monsters you can get raw resources which can be used in different craftings. So the idea is that all or most of the items ingame are player-crafted and not dropped from mobs. So yeah, loot tables will be very realistic.
I like a linear wealth progression system as long that there is always something you can't afford just like in real life.
Yes, this is important, that you need to see a lot of effort to achieve the best items. People needs goals to achieve.
There is so much stuff that seems wrong with most MMORPG's that I could go on forever but a lot of things seem to be improved in Fractured.
I totally agree.
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Concerning equipment and loot drops, I've played a game where everything in the world was player crafted. That sounds cool but in reality isn't much fun. I like killing npcs with the hope of finding something cool. I don't care if it just alters your look. I'm assuming mobs are only going to drop resources and currency.
I also played games where deforestation and mining altered the environment. If things do not respawn the landscape starts to become desolate and barren. I do like to see changes in the environment that is affected by events that take place within the game system.
I would like to see the human race category to evolve into humanoid and include basic races like elf, dwarf, orc etc.. for roleplay purposes. They don't have to offer stat/ability differences just a different look.
One thing SWTOR did right was the missions. I loved the cut scenes and progressive story lines. It felt like your own novel being written.
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Another knowledge based system that is great is the hunter system kill enough of a mob and you learn its hp value, kill more you learn its weaknesses, more and you start criting more, max and you understand the monster completely and an tame it
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@Farlander said in Progressionsystems:
Concerning equipment and loot drops, I've played a game where everything in the world was player crafted. That sounds cool but in reality isn't much fun. I like killing npcs with the hope of finding something cool. I don't care if it just alters your look. I'm assuming mobs are only going to drop resources and currency.
I personally like more games where everything is player crafted. However, I know that to some people this will feel too dull. At least developers can enliven the loot tables with rare drops, vanity items and uncommon resources.
SBI developers created a mechanic, which added items to loot tables on open world even those were all player crafted. This system was called The Black Market to whom players could sell items they crafted. That TBM was not a dumpster and it was build around buy and sell order features. Items you could get from mobs were not random and those also made mainly sense. This mechanic is also a good item sink, because it destroys a portion of sold items in the process. Something like this could be copied and develop even further. Here is the link:
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@Tuoni It just gets boring hunting when the goal is resource gathering or xps gaining. Missions where you go kill xp number of targets gets old too lol.
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@Farlander yeah I agree I get bored if I'm hunting and nothing drops or it dont fee worth my time, grinding need to feel like you are gaining lots of little things to feel fun imo or the combat needs to be engaging and tactical
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@Farlander said in Progressionsystems:
@Tuoni It just gets boring hunting when the goal is resource gathering or xps gaining. Missions where you go kill xp number of targets gets old too lol.
If you want player-driven economy like in sandbox games then those loot drops can not be finished products. But even mobs and animals drops mainly raw resources, you can use those for crafting and getting better items that way. Or you can sell resources and buy gear pieces you need. So the result is at the end same, but the process itself is different.
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It's conjecture at this point because the actual systems aren't in place yet in the game for us to test and play with, but what they proposed and aim to do so far has me intrigued.
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@Tuoni I disagree there are many mmos that have loot drops that still have a fairly lucrative player economy. From what I have seen with games having all player crafted items there end up being a few crafters who dominate the entire economy. Those guys are the ones who rushed to be the top crafters. Since all items will be player crafted then all items will be pretty much be the same unless specific materials alter stats on the items. I'm just saying from a hunting point of view it will become boring if all you get in loot is resources and currency.
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@Farlander hopefully there are mob kill achievements that give you little cosmetics, with crazy numbers like every 100,500,1000, 5000, so on giving people insentive to grind, possibly monster soul fragments used to buy skins pets mounts for certain factions, this will give the loot grinders plenty to collect and feel like they are getting lots of stuff with out effecting the economy
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@Farlander said in Progressionsystems:
@Tuoni I disagree there are many mmos that have loot drops that still have a fairly lucrative player economy.
Well you can not have player-driven economy (like in Fractured) if items are dropped from NPCs. I presume we are now talking about different kind of economy system. What games you had in your mind?
From what I have seen with games having all player crafted items there end up being a few crafters who dominate the entire economy. Those guys are the ones who rushed to be the top crafters. Since all items will be player crafted then all items will be pretty much be the same unless specific materials alter stats on the items.
It might be impossible to dominate all crafting professions all around the world. Its simply behind "timewall", especially if the crafting progression needs traveling. As long as guilds can not benefit from communisn I guess we do not see so bad dominating.
I'm just saying from a hunting point of view it will become boring if all you get in loot is resources and currency.
I understand your concern, but I can not see that devs would change the planned economy system. It is one of the core mechanics of Fractured. However, I hope DS will answer to this challenge and they will try to enliven loot tables and not offer just resources.
One option is implement system which adds player crafted items somehow on loot tables. Albion had The Black Market, maybe DS could invent something with same result.
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If item drops are only money and resources that would be it for me i think. I Test Albion Online and that was the one thing that I couldn't stand at all. I like to have the monsters drop trash items with varity of worth, weight and use. Then you should be deciding what is worth it for you to pick up becuase you don't want to be overweight to fast. I also would put resources to this group. Each "trash-item" should be precious for some an garbage for others. In addition to that the can drop rare items like the ring that the skeleton mage has, or the sword that the skeleton soldier is wearing. For this Rare items the drop rate should be very low, to not be in conflict with crafting to much. Crafted Items should have different properties then the found items, to futher distinguish between the loot and craft system. Also could the loot be a precursor for other item that are crafted from it. Or you can use Crafting to Improve or Change the Properties of the droped item. That way looting is more fun and crafting still powerful.
I always feel like if you have a Design decision between to opposing systems like everything is player crafted or most powerful stuff is droped. The best solution is between the two. But I guess it can be difficult to have a Solution in the middle without losing the strength of both extrems. Then it could be better to make one Group happy instead of both sad. That is where I see true Evolution when you can find the golden path in the middle.
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@Yaito I think if monsters have different types of items, so mobs drop collectables for houses, mounts armor and weapon skins, that are sellable on the market, and mobs also drop crafting resources. This will solve both issues making both groups happy
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If the top tier stuff is crafted only the economy will be player driven. That doesn't, however, mean you can't drop low end items. I was playing the free UO server Outlands where that is the case. Crafters using the high end materials craft the best items in the game. They also look the best lol. Still other items drop in loot that you are still able to sell to starting out players. Another problem there though is a few players rushed to the top crafting positions. They secured the prime selling spots and basically they control the market on crafted goods.
I like the idea of dropping cosmetics. That makes looting exciting for the player to see what they might get to keep them going on grinding kills yet not change the idea that players craft the usable items in the game. I played Life is Feudal which is a total player crafted economy. Devs said all along that they would only allow animals to harvest resources for targets to fight. They wanted players to fight each other. Their player base dropped so fast shortly after launch they almost tanked. People got bored not being able to kill anything for loot. I saw recently they added some npcs in the game with their own villages. So much for never doing that. Devs will adjust to their player base if they want to stay in business. So the idea that the economy will never change may or may not happen.
Another subject the devs will need to consider is durability of items and how their stats are affected. If items do not degrade then the economy will stagnate without a steady influx of new players needing new crafts. If items do not break then players will never replace those items. I hated LIF durability/crafting system. Items degraded every use even tools. So the only 100% item you made was the first item you crafted. You then had to repair/recycle your tools and even the building you used if you wanted to make another 100% item. It was an awful system.
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@Yaito said in Progressionsystems:
I Test Albion Online and that was the one thing that I couldn't stand at all.
I do not know when you tested Albion, but there you can get items from mobs, which are player crafted. I would say the drop rate is somewhere between common and rare. I guess maybe you hoped it would be more common. It actually could be by placing Black Market in every city.
I like to have the monsters drop trash items with varity of worth, weight and use. Then you should be deciding what is worth it for you to pick up becuase you don't want to be overweight to fast.
I have not understood the meaning of vendor trash items. Well, those forces players travel back to town now and then, but the result is still the same when you are looting in game currency straight from mobs. It just annoys when inventory is full in no time. I personally like more realistic loot tables and where all loot is meaningful and needed. This also depends of the game of course and for example in WoW these trash item drops are only semi-annoying.
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@Farlander Items are suppose to lose durability over time and eventually break , so new items will be needed to be crafted, dunno if it will effect the stats of items though
