Posts made by Phaethonas

@finland said in PK punishment:

@phaethonas said in PK punishment:

Care-bears should not be defended at a game like Fractured. Marrying pvp and pver is hard enough by its own, taking into the equation the extreme pvpers (gankers) and the extreme pvers (care-bears) will make the "marrying" process impossible.

Fail words. I'm an hard core pver but that means I do my best in pve content (pve content are pvp less). This does not means I'm not a pvper. I enjoy pvp but what I mean Is that I love to do a task at time. So or I go for pvp or I go for pve I hate to be disturbed while doing other things. Hard core pvper are skilled pvers that fight for something usually objectives.

Who said anything about you?! How many times must I say that not all pvers are care-bears? How many times must I say that "hard-core" pvpers are not gankers and that "hard-core" pvers are not care-bears?

Who told you, that Fractured is made according to your likings? Unless you or I make a game of our own, we won't have a game that will be made according to our likings. What we, and any other player for that matter, do, is choose a game that is as close to our likings as it can be.

For Nth time, Fractured is not a game you will like.

You want instances to be added to a game, that the devs want to, revolutionize the sandbox genre! That's crazy! If you want a game with instances, go and play a game with instances. There are games like that now, and there are upcoming games like that as well.

It is stupid to come to an open world, sandbox game and demand like a little entitled brat, the devs to add instances to their open world, sandbox game.

It is stupid to come to a game that wants to marry pvp and pve and create some sort of balance, and demand

I love to do a task at time. So or I go for pvp or I go for pve I hate to be disturbed while doing other things.

And I can't add enough emphasis at how many times you talked about yourself!

The game is both. givin pvp everywhere would make the game for pvp players only.

Who said anything about giving pvp everywhere. I was very clear that safe, non-pvp, zones should exist, even at Tartaros. I was very clear that Arboreus should have mechanics that will restrict pvp as well. I have even gone as far and said, that having pvp completely turned off at Arboreus would work, unlike the 30 minute and other restrictions, currently in discussion. In the latter case (what we have now), the economy of the game will be unbalanced. That said, turning pvp completely off at Arboreus is in the opposite direction of what the devs are planning.

In the end of the day, you saying that you don't want pvp (in one form or another) everywhere (aka in all three planets), proves again that you don't like Fractured's main and core concepts.

If the devs did not want pvp everywhere (in all three planets), they would have gone the easy and simple way, of turning the pvp at Arboreus off.

They haven't done that, which proves that they want pvp everywhere (in all three planets). They want each planet to have a different balance of pvp and pve (yes, Tartaros will have pve!).

So, stop demanding things that are the exact opposite of what the devs want. You are not gonna get them, and you are bringing a toxic environment at the community.

Every real PvEr is a carebear if you want call them like that simply cause you can focus thing without care about others while doing tasks, but this does not meas all of them hate pvp.

Not really, that is your definition of a care bear and is wrong/not shared by the majority of the MMO players. Your definition of a "ganker" is wrong/not shared by the majority of the MMO players as well.

You are literally on record saying that "ganker" = "competitive pvp player", which is ironic (at best), because a ganker does not want competition. A ganker is the player who ganks aka kills players who can't defend themselves. A competitive pvp player wants to kill other pvp players and he/she wants their opponent to be as good as possible.

A care-bear, is the person who wants to be held by the hand and just interact with the environment and wants nothing to do with pvp.

As I have said, so many times, everyone should get a game to call home. Care-bears included. That said, that doesn't mean that every game should cater to everyone, as this is literally impossible.

For a game that wants to combine and find a balance (or rather three different balances) between pvp and pve, a care bear (aka a person who wants nothing to do with pvp), is not a demographic that should be catered.

@gothix said in PK punishment:

@finland said in PK punishment:

@gothix I'm not agains PvP but as usually none is defending carebears and I hate that so much. This time I choose to talk. I think that many players "carebears" as many loves to call just disliket engaged in PvP so the problem is just the playstyle that why you can not ask to get ffa everywhere.

The real way to defend "care bears" is not to ask for PvP punishment in game design, but rather to group with them when actually playing, invite them to guild, help them out against attackers, play together.

Majority of PvP-ers are not gankers. It is a bad design to punish majority of PvP player base, because of just small part of gankers (and ganking of low levels will not even be possible in Fractured).

This is why sandbox games work well. They allow community to deal with issues as they see fit, by actually playing the game, and not having a game forced in certain way by design.

(and I'm not asking for FFA everywhere, I am happy with current Fractured design. I am commenting on thread title, that is called "PK punishment" which should not exist in any other extra way)

Care-bears should not be defended at a game like Fractured. Marrying pvp and pver is hard enough by its own, taking into the equation the extreme pvpers (gankers) and the extreme pvers (care-bears) will make the "marrying" process impossible.

Finland needs to understand this, if he wants to stay in this game and see it succeed.

As for the OP, punishing player killing is stupid. Why have a feature which you will punish? That is crazy. If you want a game without pvping then you make a game without pvping or you make a server where pvp is not possible. If on the other hand you want a game, or server, with pvping, whereas is the sense at punishing it?

Fractured is a game that wants pvp, so there is absolutely no reason to punish it, at any form. Restricting it? Controlling it? Yes. Punishing it? No.

Daily post.

I second, the ability to have two options. If you want to play like Path of Exiles, you should be able to. If you want to play like WoW or other MMORPGs, you should be able to. As simple as that.

@gibbx said in I want to get excited but...:

@gothix I believe this is incorrect. progression will be linear so while there will not be disparity in levels one player may well have a steep advantage in having progressed farther in the knowledge system and have access to much better skills. Ergo you can (and will) be ganked.

Your analysis does not take into consideration a number of things, including, but not limited to, the following;

a) there are safe zones, including one (called "nests") at Tartaros, which won't allow pvp. These can be used by new players in order to be safe. There they will progress their knowledge system, enough, in order to be able to be competitive.

So, after you have progressed enough in your knowledge tree, there will be no more "better skills", but rather more skills and more combinations of skills.

Sure that brings the question of "how much is enough", but this is a question that will be answered during testing. Once this "enough" "quantity" is found, the player will be able to progress that much, within the said safe zones (e.g. "nests").

As such, when this player ventures out of the safe zone(s), he/she will not be in direct and clear disadvantage over another, more "knowledgeable", player.

b) You won't be able to have all skills active at the same time, neither all can be at your ability bar.

So, after a while getting deeper in the knowledge tree won't offer you any direct advantage over another player. The only advantage you will have is that your character will be more versatile.

I, for example, will have only tanking skills, but you on the other hand will have tanking and healing skills. This will allow you to run a hybrid or switch between a healer, a tank and a hybrid.

@finland said in I want to get excited but...:

@gothix said in I want to get excited but...:

If someone goes gathering and someone ambush him that's ganking.

That is not ganking!

That is open world pvp. If you don't like it, go to a game that will not have open world and/or it will not have pvp. Fractured is build around the open world and the sandbox paradigms. I have told you, so many times, Fractured won't be a game you will like. This is why you go left and right and whine constantly about core mechanics/features of the game and decisions made by the devs.

Such as, when you wanted to add instances at an open world sandbox game! lol

@gothix said in I want to get excited but...:

@Phaethonas @Finland Fractured will not have ganking for the simple reason that it does not have levels, and all people start with access to full stats and EQUAL maximum skill slots CAP in a skill bar.
[...]

So people can stop "ganking" discussions really. This is not that kind of MMO.

And if someone doesn't have skills to play, well, then that is his own problem, and not a problem of other people that are also playing Fractured. He can play, practice and get better.

My point(s) exactly.

Thank you for putting it, in another/one more/better/more detailed way.

@finland said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas oh comeon Gankers can still gank on Syndesia and Tartaros. I don't care about few low player that are scared to gank pro pvp players. Those kind of players should go to the bar and drink some tea instead showing up on MMORPGs. It's just reality not hatred.

The only reality here is that the game has mechanics that won't allow ganking. No matter how many times you claim that Fractured will be able to cater to gankers, you still will be wrong, because the game's mechanics discourage/won't allow ganking

@finland said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas gankers should not play if they are low and just want easy kills. So the answer is: no games for them.

Well, who expresses hate now? Unlike you, I want everyone to have a game to play. Even pay2winners, and I hate p2w.

Regardless, at the very least, it seems that you finally agree with me, that gankers should not and will not be catered at Fractured. Similarly, and for the same reasons, care-bears should not be catered. Catering either will bring unbalance to the game, especially its economy, and as such the game will collapse.

@finland said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas said in I want to get excited but...:

You have no solutions for gankers either. So what?

You are joking or you can not get things. Gankers got their spots already Tartaros is purely for gankers. And you should stop say stupid things. Consider that thegame is not fair forgood player cause evil and flagged people can enter cities and that should not happen. Npc should attack and haunt down on Syndesia and Arboreus so I think you all got more than what was needed. If you just care about ganking you can go play Albion that a purely gank fest game.

Gankers won't have a place at Tartaros. As I have said before, gankers want easy pickings/killings, and Tartaros will be full of competitive players. Add how "leveling" will work at Fractured (so a high level player can't just easily kill a low/er level player), and the fact that the "nests" will be no pvp zone, and you can understand that there will be no "easy killings/pickings" at Tartaros. As such, gankers will not get catered, as they should not.

Tartaros, the Demon planet, is the land for all of you hardcore MMO players who want to enjoy competition at its finest. PvP is strictly Free-For-All, aside from the Nests where new Demons are born, and no punishment or limitation is imposed on Evil characters and criminals like Thieves and Murderers.

source

Apparently you confuse, or you want to confuse, gankers with competitive/hardcore pvp players, which do not seek easy pickings, but rather want challenges. Tartaros will be their proving ground.

As such, and for reasons I have explicitly explained in detail; a) demons should not be (practically) banned from Arboreus, as long as each planet's economy is not self-sustainable and b) care-bears should not be catered either.

Care-bears and gankers will be toxic for a game like Fractured.

@finland said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas said in I want to get excited but...:

@miffi said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas I guess the last option would keep most happy with no fighting being allowed means the care bears would be happy. Personally I wouldnt like there to be no PvP at all, but it would be the easiest solution to having the most people happy. Or have 20% where demons can roam and there is pvp there but full of mats so that demons can collect them.

That option is the easiest solution, but perhaps not the best solution, and quite frankly it is an unlikely solution, as the devs have designed a number of systems that should just be scrapped. That would require a significant redesign of the game, which is unlikely to happen.

What is not a solution though, is the current model.

You have no solutions for carebears so there is not much point to talk.

You have no solutions for gankers either. So what?

How many times must I say the same thing? It is like talking to a wall.

Gankers and care-bears should not be catered at Fractured, should not be included into the solution.

You can't make a game that can please everyone. In order to please as many as possible, you have to compromise. Gankers and care-bears, are extreme groups that won't compromise, by definition, as such are cancerous communities, for a game like Fractured, that without the said compromise will fail.

Gankers and care-bears should look, find and play a pure pvp and pve game, respectively.

@miffi said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas I guess the last option would keep most happy with no fighting being allowed means the care bears would be happy. Personally I wouldnt like there to be no PvP at all, but it would be the easiest solution to having the most people happy. Or have 20% where demons can roam and there is pvp there but full of mats so that demons can collect them.

That option is the easiest solution, but perhaps not the best solution, and quite frankly it is an unlikely solution, as the devs have designed a number of systems that should just be scrapped. That would require a significant redesign of the game, which is unlikely to happen.

What is not a solution though, is the current model.

@miffi said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas Dont get me wrong, I've stated various times that I'm happy that there is PvP. I wont run from it, I'd fight especially if I'm at an advantage and someone tries to take my shit lol. I'm just trying to point out the 'other sides worry'.

Granted, I agree, if the planets are self sustaining then you need to allow mechanics for travel, but it also doesnt mean you need to allow PvP everywhere at all times. You could have a section of Arboreus there materials and the like are farmable that everyone can go (say 10-20% of the planet) but the rest of the world is restricted to beastmen. Not saying this is the perfect answer but there are ways round it so that materials can still be gained with everyone in mind, if that is the argument PvPer's are saying. Then everyone should be happy, right?

But I'm going to assume thats not the case lol. Therein is where the truth lies.

Define "the other side" and their "worries". Are we talking about care-bears? Then, I am sorry, but I don't care. And I don't care because as long as each planet does not have self-sustainable economy, they are/will be part of the problem. As part of the problem will be the gankers as well.

It is very simple actually. Do you want to make a game with some sort of pvp and pve mix? Extreme groups from both sides should not be included.

Now, if we are talking about non-care-bear pvers, then these can accept that occasionally they will die by evil humans and/or demons. They will have their safe zones to run into, the dungeons and raids will be there as well, but a substantial amount of arboreus, where materials will be found, will be "freely" accessible to demons and evil humans. And by "freely" I don't mean completely freely of course, but that practically it will be possible for a demon to go to Arboreus, farm for a couple of hours, get back to Tartaros and introduce the Arboreus materials into the Tartaros market. This, eventually, will reduce the presence of the demons at Arboreus.

If you want to go into further details, I'd suggest making it difficult going at Arboreus, if you are evil aligned, than staying at Arboreus. You should have a number of debuffs that will weaken you, which will discourage fighting and will encourage farming, exploring etc, but you should not have a timer to work against.

This way, only a handful of evil aligned players will be at Arboreus at all times, because only a few will have the dedication to work through the initial, difficult stage. If you move the difficulty to later stages, people will just come wave after wave. If you make it impossible, the game will collapse.

You need demons to go to Arboreus, farm, gather materials and bring back those to Tartaros. Then, I can find these materials at the market, and I won't come to Arboreus.

And you can add another mechanic. Assuming that I am evil aligned 20, Arboreus can have a limit of "evil alignment". Let's say that this is 2000. Assuming that the average of evil aligned for each person is 20, then we can see that only 100 evil aligned persons can be at Arboreus at all times. If I want to go, I won't be allowed (because; lore reasons) and I will be put into a queue.

But in order for this to work, I will say again, I will have to be able to farm in a way that will allow significant amount of Arboreus materials to be introduced to the Tartaros market.

There are many ways, to find this balance, and unfortunately the devs heard the most extreme care-bears and introduced the worst of mechanics; the timer.

As it stands now, practically, each race brings their ruleset with them when travelling to another planet. I'd rather have each planet having its ruleset, regardless the race. So at Tartaros, humans will be able to FFA pvp, without worrying about their karma/justice system, the karma/justice system will be applied at the human planet for all three races and at Arboreus everyone will be unable to fight.

There are so many ways, literally. With the system as it is now or with the system/mechanics changed somewhat, and the devs chose the worst possible scenario.

The only thing that makes me think that the game won't fail, is that Prometheus has said explicitly that none of these mechanics are set in stone. As such they can change, and how they will change it will be determined at Alpha. Hopefully at that time, they (the devs) will realize their mistake.

@miffi said in I want to get excited but...:

One group isnt happy with fighting each other and desire to involves those who dont and people feel as those others are going out of their way to make sure they wont enjoy a game they would otherwise have.

In that case, Fractured is not designed for these players. There are games designed exclusively for pvers, like Saga of Lucimia. Pantheon will also feature a very strong pve centric gameplay, with most servers being pve servers and maybe (just maybe) pvp servers later on.

Each planet at Fractured is not a pvp/pve/pvx server. The game revolves around the concept of different economies (at each planet) and the necessity of moving from planet to planet for economy/financial reasons. As such, pvers should accept that they will come in contact with pvpers and that the latter may kill them. This rules out the care-bear pvers. Similarly, in order not to discourage other pvers (non care-bear pvers), a number of obstacles will (and should) be applied, which will stop pvpers from "griefing". As such, whether you want to call them griefers, gankers or otherwise, these extreme pvpers should also not be catered.

I will say for Nth time; The moment the devs decided these two grous to co-exist, they have to take measures in order for extreme pvpers (aka gankers) and extreme pvers (aka care bears), not to be catered. If either will get catered, then the game will collapse, because of a number of imbalances, primarily among them, those related with the economy of the game.

Another route the devs can take is to make each planet self-sufficient with self-sustainable economy. This though changes their already announced plans. In that case, care-bears would pose no problem at Arboreus. But so far, we know that this won't be the case. As things are today, we know that the economy of each planet will not be self-sustainable. So, you can't deny access to arboreus to the demons, just because care-bears are afraid. That will lead to a problem at the game's economy.

It is that simple.

Start looking beyond what you want, and the gameplay you want, and start seeing the whole picture. If you do, you will understand that if you have planets with economies that are non-self-sustainable, then you need the travelling mechanic. Imposing restrictions that will make travelling impractical, will create serious problems.

@finland said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas you have some problem with understanding. I have never asked to replace open world pvp with instanced pvp I only asked to give us also objective pvp aka capture the flag and so on cause players like me does not care to go around in an open world arena for some FFA.

It is you, who has a problem of understanding.

The moment you add instances (aka arenas), even without removing the open world part, you have turned Fractured into something that the devs don't intend at making. The game has been turned into a theme park instead of a sandbox. The devs want to;

innovate the world of Sandbox MMOs by opening it up to audiences that have been cut off from what we believe is the most exciting online game genre out there - and one with exceptional growth perspectives, too.

source

Is this so damn hard for you to understand?

spreading the word for today's Q&A!

@finland said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas said in I want to get excited but...:

So, for all intents and purposes you want Fractured not to cater to competitive pvpers, because you are afraid of them! OK got it!

Stop it or I will get angry cause you do not want to listen others and you do not want to understand.

1. I'm not afraid to PvP.
2. Battleground (instanced PvP) it's skillfull
3. I play Mostly PvP games aka FPS/RTS and Moba

1. You act like it
2. I beg to differ, but regardless this game is not about instances. Is that so hard for you to understand?
3. I don't care

You are wrong thinking Pkers are hard core PvPers.

I never said that though, did I?

I used the term "extreme" and not "hard core" for a reason.

Yes, your attitude is bordeline toxic, because your "point" goes against fundamental concepts of the game.

The only toxic here is you making others feel angry.

If the truth makes you feel angry that is not something to blame me for.

Fractured is an open world, sandbox game. It is being build around that concept, as well as the concept of travelling between the different planets. You proposing instances, is insane.

@miffi said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas He does have a point in that it seems that its just pk'ers looking for easy kills against those who dont know how to. I think thats the fear a lot of people have. But then again I'm quite happy with the decision DS have done with the stat reduction so I dont think its much of an issue anymore.

I have explicitly said that both the extreme pve players (aka care bears) as well as the extreme pvp players (pk'ers looking for easy kills as you call them) should not be catered at Fractured, if the devs want the game to work.

Finland on the other hand, wants care bears to be catered (he has said so explicitly) and wants all pvpers (and not only those looking for easy killings) to be locked into an instance (see arenas), all the while Fractured is an open world, sandbox game!

That is insane.

@finland said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas said in I want to get excited but...:

@finland said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas Humans will do and all brave Beastmen, I'm already gathering/recruiting people under the same banner

Why would good humans go to Arboreus and defend the care bears? And will "brave" beastmen have enough numbers? And will they care to defend their care-bear brethren?

To punish all low pkers around by bringing justice! I'm the justice! I will bring it some how and I will eradicate all the evil from our lands. Dunno how many will follow me but for sure I hope to find more players than those invading (talking about numbers). We'll see.

PS. I'm not up to do that all over the day obviusly.

That is not a real incentive.

Also, you are a little bit over your head, aren't you? You are the justice?!! lol

@finland said in I want to get excited but...:

@phaethonas said in I want to get excited but...:

Oh so, you consider an extreme pvper the competitive pvper and you want Fractured not to cater for them?

I have never said that! That's why I asked for instanced pvp where it's purely skill based. Pking is not hardcore pvp.

So, for all intents and purposes you want Fractured not to cater to competitive pvpers, because you are afraid of them! OK got it!

And I am saying "for all intents and purposes you want Fractured not to cater to competitive pvpers,", because you want them locked out of the open world and into the instances where you will not have to deal with them.

Well, as I have said to you before, your "vision" for the game is in direct opposition with the one the devs are having, and you will never get what you want.

Instances are not gonna happen, especially areanas. Competitive pvp will take place in the open world, and you just implied that you disagree with it.

Your attitude is bordeline toxic. Not to me, not towards other fans, but to the devs themselves!

Toxic? Silly tho. I'm just givin my point of you as I said many times. Mobas has hard core pvpers or extreme pvpers. Skill over playstyle. Pkers are like proplayers smurfing around to kill bronze players easly. I hate that.

Yes, your attitude is bordeline toxic, because your "point" goes against fundamental concepts of the game.

What would you call it if I went to Camelot Unchained and whinned at the forums for the lack of pve progression? What would you call it if I go to the Pantheon forums and whinned about the lack of arenas?

You like it or not, Fractured is a) open world, b) sandbox. You want to turn it into a) instanced and b) theme park! That is insane!