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@Manaia said in Should the animals kill each other:

@Jetah We'd best ready ourselves with the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!
If I see a rabbit, I can't assume it's an ordinary rabbit! It's the mouse foul beast I'd ever set eyes on!

We need this. If not this, then at least some sort of interaction between different types of mobs - even if it's keeping their distance, etc.

@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:

If I am e.g. a master crafter of swords and a bounty hunter who tries to catch criminals, I bet those determines my characters identity much more rather than attribute points in the background.

Thanks for the thought out reply. I like the detailed explanation behind your rationale. I think we share similar viewpoints here. I wanted to quote this small section of it to follow up on, not to discard or dismiss the rest of your post, which I largely agree with.

My big thing about identity goes as follows, hopefully I present it well enough. If your (collective, not you you) mastercrafter of swords and bounty hunter is your character's identity, would you not distribute attributes in a way that aligns and ties in with that character? That is an assumption I would make and I would assume others make. I am likely wrong in my assumptions, and I'm sure there is some sort of bias there. Given that assumption (and if I'm wrong with that assumption, none of the rest of this matters), severely changing your attributes will, likely, severely change who your character is.

Ignoring attributes, what I don't want to see is mastercrafter of swords and bounty hunter by day, BATTLEMAGE BY NIGHT! What I would rather see is mastercrafter of swords and bounty hunter by day, hold my beer, I wanna try something by night! To expand on this, let's add attributes to this scenario. Our attributes would be "locked" (remember, I've conceded that attribute respecs can exist with a cost/cooldown associated to it) to our mastercrafter of the swords and bounty hunter character, but it doesn't stop him from using any other ability that he wants to. Him and his battlemage roommate can go around casting magic missile into the darkness. Builds are still available to him, but Gandalf's magic will still be a little stronger than Boba Fett's.

One man's opinion...

@Farlander I'm sorry you feel I was insulting you? For what it's worth, I said altoholic, not alcoholic.

I'm sorry if you felt I missed your point. Just because I didn't disagree with it doesn't mean I didn't see it. And nothing I said ran contraire to what you said. I've said it multiple times throughout this thread, I also believe that respecs should have some cost or consequence and should not be a frequent event. This is in line of what you're supporting.

I have played D&D. There are parallels between their stat systems and Fractured's. But I disagree that, in Fractured, stats ARE the build. At least, not yet, anyway. The closest thing I could see to that is magic missile scaling with int. Stats are otherwise pretty negligible in builds. Speaking of D&D, your DM allowed respecs?

I don't think I made any points about people pressuring respecs. I think you're confusing me with Manaia? Is that where you think I've been insulting? Really, though, this is bothering me more than it should Where did I insult you or other players? I'm not a big fan of baseless accusations. I've upvoted all (I don't think I've missed any) of the posts that I've replied to because I think it's healthy for discourse. I believe your opinions should be acknowledged and not misrepresented.

TL;DR: We have largely the same opinion on this topic. And you're baselessly accusing me of insulting other people on this board.

@Razvan I think we share a lot of the same opinions here.

For the end game thing, I think it really matters what there is to do in end game vs the journey there. Do I think we should be a top ganker within a day or two? Is that reasonable with the systems in place? Maybe? Maybe not. I think that being competitive in the ganking scene can be pretty likely - all depending on your main.

From what we know, these things make our end game:
Knowledge
Gear
Enchants

Gear and enchants can, essentially, be traded between characters. Knowledge is the only thing that will really take time. And that you can be carried with friends/guildies.

As I understand it, the plans are to offer different modifications to abilities later? Like if Diablo 3's rune system had ranks. That could change the amount of time it takes to get an alt to end game. But as it is now, it seems very easy to hit that end game. It really depends how much of a role knowledge plays.

One more question for the crowd. If you are in favor of respecs, do you feel that these should include race changes? I find that most the arguments being made in favor of respecs would suggest that race changes should also be included. I would definitely be opposed to that.

@Farlander Hey Farlander, thanks for taking the time to respond.

Your first bullet point brings up an issue that isn't related to the actual topic, but my assumptions (and I can easily be wrong in these) would be that altoholics will not be the main demographic that is advocating for rerolling. I've addressed the meat of your objection, that nerfs our character build to the point that your toon is shot, with my second point in my post that this variance as a result of your choice shouldn't have too much impact to overall balance. I would push that no reasonable attribute allocation should destroy any build. Attributes should not carry that level of power over our characters.

I don't believe that it would take long for a new characters to hit "end game" here. Not from what I've seen so far. I definitely don't think it will take weeks to unlock a handful of abilities. Also, regarding the fact that my character would get nerfed to the point they are no fun to play. This sounds to me like an entirely different problem you have than with attribution points - which have a minimal impact on the current game.

I've also addressed that respecing being available to everyone CAN have bearing on ALL other players. It shapes the world we play in. The biggest thing that comes to mind is the economy. I'm not entirely against respecs, but there should be a cost (of something, time, money, etc) to it. And it shouldn't exist on the fly.

It's in the best interests to the devs to keep players around and enjoying the game... Absolutely agree here! But keep in mind that there are multiple viewpoints to satisfy than the single one you're pushing - which we don't even know to be true at this point or not. I think we should have a good balance of it. I don't think everyone should be able to respec freely at any time. I think that is the purpose of alts - to have a different experience.

@Tuoni Having an option to respec attributes does not offer advantage over other players so it does not have negative impacts. Avoiding player frustration is also somethig what developers should taken account when planning QoL things. Isn't the whole argument of having respecs is because it DOES offer advantages? And the fact that it does offer advantages ("disadvantages" can balance this - any cost) would imply that one would be disadvantaged by NOT doing it. This can frustrate players that now feel more compelled to respec - especially if there is a cost, which there should be.

Every design decision may affect on everyone but the effects are usually positive so why would that be a problem. Disagree. Every design decision is usually positive?

A feature like 'possibility to reroll attributes' will be a huge QoL thing. I agree. It is a huge QoL thing. I might end up doing it dozens of times a day. Please let there be a cooldown cost on this if respecs are a thing.

Everyone has this chance but it is still optional if someone decides not to use that for any reasons. At the moment the reason looks like to be a character identity. You've missed the point here. Maintaining character identity is an argument against allowing (frequent/costless) respecs. Maintaining character identity would not be a reason to not respec. If it's in game, people will be compelled to do it.

At the moment the reason looks like to be a character identity which is quite small roleplaying feature tbh. Identity is a lot more important, I think, than you realize it is. Maybe not to you, though. But you shouldn't dismiss it as a concern from the community because you don't personally care for it. Identity is crucial for any characters, be it in any game, TV show, or movie.

I like this idea. I'm not sure what kind of skills can be learned by it, but i like it!

The checkbox system of knowledge gained in the current version does give us more KP to allow learning more abilities, is that enough? I don't know. I'm hard pressed to find non-combat skills that would really work. Keep in mind, I'm pretty sure there are no passives in this game, so they will need to be activated. Perhaps "professions" can work in this way - where you can do certain things with certain objects that you loot, but we have the crafting tables for that...

To add to my post and address the "then why limit our choice to change this on the fly?"

The gameplay answer to address that would be: Because then we will be compelled to do it every time we do something else. It would become a chore and a task every single time. The more "dedicated/hardcore" a player is, the more they will act on these compulsions, and the less fun it becomes.

And, while, that specific issue may be more of a psychological one, it doesn't negate the fact that it is one. People need not look further than WoW to see how some of their "optional" content led to so much burnout for players.

One thing I would like to point out in this thread is that 1) choices should matter/have an impact, and 2) this variance as a result of your choice shouldn't have too much impact to overall balance. Of course, we may never be able to agree on what level of variance is acceptable, let alone what level of variance is acceptable from a reasonable/intelligently spec'd build.

What do I mean by this? Choices matter. This helps us both build a character identity and tilt us slightly further into a specific role. Note: slightly further.

The variance between these choices should not be significant to actual gameplay, but perhaps serve more QoL purposes for what you will be largely focused on doing. The difference between a few stat points should not be task breaking.

Alts should be fairly accessible in this game and not require much time to spin up and play, so I think alts could fill the role of drastically different characters and playstyles.

Now, to address the "If you don't like it, don't do it" argument...that is a very wrong and shortsighted argument. This is an mmo. EVERY design decision effects everyone. Whether they use it or not. They help shape the meta of every aspect of the game. It is, however, a valid point when discussing single player games.

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