Egregors


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    When i writing down concept of my game i deffinatly give a lot of attention to Egregor system. Since Fractured is still in development meybe i can share this system with you and you might use it, cos like in my game u also have concept of good and evil.

    so what is Egregor. Egregor is just like a currency of religions. In esoteric knowlage Egregor is concentrated energy of some kind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore) there can be egregor of war, of fear, of love, of some god, etc.
    I suggest to use the same system in game. in my concept there can be two egregors GOOD and EVIL, and after that you can invest your energy in more particular egregors like Babilis egregor.

    So every creature can be good and can be bad (some are neutral) and everyone has some personal points of good or evil. Say goblin has 5 points of of evil, but huge black dragon has 1000 of evil points or maybe unicorn has 200 good points, the point is that every mob is either good or evil (or neutral) good creatures on green planet bad creatures on red planet. so if you kill them you gain those points. say you ve killed dragon you got 1000 points to your good egregor. if dragon killed you and you had 1000 good points then dragon now got 2000 evil points and you have zero good points.

    So there is a personal egregor and total. personal is your own point you got from killing mobs and players and total is amount of all evil points all evil players have (not mobs) it can look like this 10/1000000 or 235/983747321 (second number is a summ of all first numbers each player has)

    what you can do with those points? basicaly its all about personal point but there is a competition in total amount as well, so you can get some stuff to have more total egregor points then your opponent.

    first. priests who serves GODs can create a quest. for example to kill 10 unicorns and bring their heads. say you are quest taker and you have 1000 points so if you wanna take this quest you invest your 1000 points and if you fail then you got 0 if your succeed then you got 2000. so you double it. say you are quest giver and you have 1000 points then you create a quest to kill 10 unicorns and bring their heads, someone took it and you got minus 1000 and now you have 0. if quest is done you not only got your 1000 points back but also you got 10 unicorn head and those you can sucrifise to Babilis and he will give you another 1000 or 2000 points. you quest faild you r left with 0.

    second, you can use points like a currency. for example any player who is a priest can set up quests. in core, its a straggle of faith cos priest are the one who use those points. They use them for sacred need therefore they can control them. there are total points and there are personal. Say you are priest and you wanna earn a lots of points. you cant do low ranked quests by yourself so you desided to esteblish your points foundation. Say you created icon of Holy Juda. that means that everyone who will take from your foundation will give you back 10%. Say your foundation has 10000 points. Another Priest wants to create 10 quests which worth 100 of good points each, but he has only 500 to invest but he need another 500 (1000). so he gets another 500 in your foundation. so he got 1000. so he issues 10 quests and if everything is succesful he got 2000. he pays you 10% from 500 which is 50 so he got 1950. (or maybe of 2000 which is 200 so its in final 1800, doesnt matter) if he not succeed he pays you those 500 he originaly got. and evil got all heros points they lost while trying (players who took this quest also had to to invest their points to double them but they failed so point goes to evil). also quest are limited in time. if you havent done them in time you failed quest. this system will give us sort of permadeath without death cos after you died you lose you point to your enemy if they are from oposed side. if demon killed demon it doest give him good points. the rest is sorted by karma system.

    third. once priest collected enough points he can cast a special magic, for example he gained 100000 point and he can cast armagedon (on city) where everyone die. so he must be doing it carefully cos he must earn more then he spent. so there must be a lots or players with a lots of egregor points must die. if there will be like 100 people with 2000 each then this priest will earn 200k but spend 100k so 100k profit.
    or good priest can create a energy feild as a protaction from armagedons and evil prist will lose his points. (but good priest will lose too but will save citizens)

    forth. then more point you get the more cool feachures you got. and they are diffrent form your usual abilities. you can get an extra stuff to become stronger. for example you can invest them into praying god and get some buffs or priests can resurrect you while buttle using those points and you get you supposadly lost points a refund. (so u dont lose anything) preasts can heal using those points. so its like all connected - you have killed a dragon that can give you 10000 heals in case if one heal cost 1 point and dragon got 10k points.

    you abilitis can be buffed. so you can make up many other good stuff by yourself what egregor points can provide you. the main thing is that good and evil are in fight and a winner isnt indicated. those who winning will have good benifits.

    fiveth. you can pray and by that you give you pionts to any god or priest you want. so insted of collecting them for yourself you can donated them by praying. and praying doesnt happen instantly, it take some time, not a lot but not instant. if you give them all to one priest then this priest can create top level magic for everyone, or if you give them to one god (gos has their own score of points) then you make this god stronger, lets say Babilis with 1000 points and Babilis with 1000000 points are two different Babilises. One is very strong and another one is weak. Players with high amount of points can get low points quests so that they wont steal them from newbes.

    ps- i might add some other info to this post cos ideas are boiling in my head but this is a basic concept.


  • TF#8 - GENERAL AMBASSADOR

    @boogis This is an interesting concept. It would be interesting to have this kind of point system, and the divine spells could be incorporated into this easily.


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @wolfkomodo46 said in Egregors:

    @boogis This is an interesting concept. It would be interesting to have this kind of point system, and the divine spells could be incorporated into this easily.

    thank you, mate for reading it all and immerse in this concept. u got it right- exactly! divine spells and quests is what it aims for.
    the best games are who mimic real world, even tho egregor isnt physical however its real.


  • TF#4 - EMISSARY

    @Bogard123

    First of all, I wanna say, after reading all your other posts, I am glad that you managed to put some empty lines in your post and get a little structure in it. Nice going there.

    Now, a lot of what you are talking about there, is already kind of in the idea od the Karma - System.

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    So every creature can be good and can be bad (some are neutral) and everyone has some personal points of good or evil. Say goblin has 5 points of of evil, but huge black dragon has 1000 of evil points or maybe unicorn has 200 good points, the point is that every mob is either good or evil (or neutral) good creatures on green planet bad creatures on red planet. so if you kill them you gain those points. say you ve killed dragon you got 1000 points to your good egregor. if dragon killed you and you had 1000 good points then dragon now got 2000 evil points and you have zero good points.

    This for instance, is already in the Karma - System (you gain or lose Karma, dependent on which alignemt you have and the mob you kill has).

    Now you are talking a lot about priests, and how they can do quests for better skills (which is already in the divine system), and how they can create their own quests for other players (if I understood that correctly).

    So now my question becomes... what exactly is a priest and / or how do you become one?
    And if you already gain special and better skills in the Karma system, why add another system which does the same?


  • TF#4 - EMISSARY

    Wanted to edit my last question to

    "And if you already gain special and better skills in the divine system, why add another system which does the same?"

    but this change was flagged as spam? what? 😆


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @eurav i already explained it all.

    karma is different, look the same but its different. read more carefully

    @eurav said in Egregors:

    Now you are talking a lot about priests, and how they can do quests for better skills (which is already in the divine system), and how they can create their own quests for other players (if I understood that correctly).

    they collect egregor point and if they collected a lot they get access to special magic. say you have collected 100k personal point so you can cast Armagedon on some city which will kill everyone and if you have killed enough players that covers your points expenses then you can earn more then you invested and if you earned 500k point you get some other scary magic like destroy all farms or poison all food. or destroy all supply of wood by termite, just use your imagination, mate. more you invest more u get.

    about quests. it works like a refferal system. gods needs sucrifice. god gods need evil sucrifice and vise versa. to give players more meaning in killing stupid monsters (since we dont have grind and have linier system) we can give them a reason to kill them. we can create quests (created by players themselves, priests) and reward them for succeding in them. so you killed evil mob? good boy. here is you good point, you spread good all over the planet you are hero. but if you killed mob and choped off his head and brought it to priest you are actually doubled all your points.

    how you become priest??? i dont know man, just use your imagination, i cant think of all stuff by myself )))) maybe you complite difficult conversion, maybe you have beeng chosen by community (guild or town) maybe you have complited serias of devine quests, maybe you bought a pledge. I DONT KNOW, sorry ))))))


  • TF#4 - EMISSARY

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    how you become priest??? i dont know man, just use your imagination, i cant think of all stuff by myself )))) maybe you complite difficult conversion, maybe you have beeng chosen by community (guild or town) maybe you have complited serias of devine quests, maybe you bought a pledge. I DONT KNOW, sorry ))))))

    haha 😁 , okay, thought maybe you had a vision on that 😄

    You say:

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    karma is different, look the same but its different. read more carefully

    Sure it is "different", but it does the same.

    Apart from having priests with op skills that can destroy / protect landscapes and issue quests for other players, what is the difference between your point system and the current Karma and Divine Quest System?

    What exactly do you find missing in the Karma and Divine Quest System?

    Where I want to go with that is, do you think we need a second point system that does the same as the Karma and Divine Quest System? Why not just add Priests and being able to issue quests to other players to the current system?


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @boogis my advice would be to make a TLDR version of your post, because I didn't read that. 😛

    Most humans just skip posts that are too large and don't even read them (trust me). 🙂


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @eurav sometimes if have feeling that u dont read what im write.
    you cant manege carma point you cant control it. you cant create your karma foundation, which egregor point you can become like sort of holy trader, who multiplying good or evil by borrowing egregor points.
    if you got killed you dont lose all your karma. there are no evil and good creature who give you +- to karma, karma does work differently. egregor point they like a gold coins, it can go from one person to another. u cant do it with karma. karma is not limitless. it has some sort of limit of -20000 and gives you a title "murderor" and thats it. karma doest give you a magic skills, karma doest boost your god by making him stronger, if you pray like a million egregor pont to Babilis its willl become a very strong and all he does for demons will increas segnificantly. egregor points like a holy currency. if you have them a lot your mover is stronger. aslo there is not connection between karma and gold coins. egrogor points has a connection cos that what priests do. they pay for a real gold coins so that you had to go and do what they tell you i search of normal wealth. priest reward someone who bring them points with gold.

    im sure there are more planty of difference i just cant remember it now, when i was writing it just poped up in my head.

    oh...also there is no competition between good and bad karma but egregor point give you some benifits of your evil or good is winning, i dont know what exactly but if you are leading then u gotta have a reward as whole Evil/Good beings.

    i think i mentioned it - you cant to give your karma to other players or gods.

    Karma is looks similar and maybe at some point server some same functions but its different complitly. we can somehow connect those two system buy keep in mind they are two different systems. (which can be connected on some level)


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    @eurav sometimes if have feeling that u dont read what im write.

    @gothix said in Egregors:

    Most humans just skip posts that are too large and don't even read them (trust me). 🙂

    😛


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @gothix yeah, seems like you the one who read all. thanks for that. im not full of frikin pride i can repeat for lazy ones but im not gonna do it for every individual. they cant read the topic, they cant read comments, what do they want? telepathy??? omg ☹ ☹


  • TF#4 - EMISSARY

    @boogis nah, I am reading everything. It´s just that some information might get lost in translation, and some in different intrepretation of what you are writing, and since neither yours nor my english are perfect, I am pretty sure those problems occur 😉

    So... you mentioned a connection between gold and egregor, which did not pup up in your first post. Which leads me to think, that you actually know more about how you want the system to work, than you wrote so far in this post. And if I make arguments based on what you write, and you make them based on what you envision, it is clear that we might get to talk past each other sometimes.

    And yeah, I understand that they work a bit differently, I just overlooked that, because to me it seemed like apart from adding a new point sysem, it does not provide anything really new.

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    you cant manege carma point you cant control it.

    Sure you can control it, there are ways to get + and some ways to get - karma points, by doing the respective action, you can control it a bit.

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    there are no evil and good creature who give you +- to karma

    Yes there are, although I am too tired to go and search for which Q&A this was mentioned.

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    karma doest give you a magic skills, karma doest boost your god by making him stronger

    That´s true, but the divine system (divine quests to the god of your joice) does, which is why I always mentioned both of them.

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    Karma is looks similar and maybe at some point server some same functions but its different complitly. we can somehow connect those two system buy keep in mind they are two different systems. (which can be connected on some level)

    Yeah, I think trying to connect them, or add the features that you think are missing to the current Karma and Divine System, would be a better approach, than add a completely new system which has a lot of similarities.

    Maybe the system you envision actually would add enough new things to be worth implemented as a whole, I just don´t really see it yet, from what you have written until now.


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @eurav ofcourse not everything about this concept i mentioned. cos otherwise i give opportunity for criticants to attack my concept. and why should i tell everything? if you try to give people everything they start to think its a giveaway. i give you a concept, and its your work to polish it to perfection, if i see that you trying hard then i will might deside to give you some good hints. you have to keep in mind that its me who is giving you a favour, not you. if you dont like a concept, thats fine, i lose nothing, but your game does.
    so i wish to stop descuss it in repeditive cicle - i tell you its different you tell me its all the same. prove me its different, have some work done and i will see what i can do for you.
    thanks


  • TF#4 - EMISSARY

    @boogis

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    ofcourse not everything about this concept i mentioned. cos otherwise i give opportunity for criticants to attack my concept.

    Well that´s what different opinions are here for right? Somebody makes a suggestion, and other players can add their concerns / ideas to the suggestion, to polish it. Without attacking a concept one might miss opportunities to polish the idea.

    You not wanting to say everything is of course fine. Especially since you said something like this is a system you created for your game. I can understand not wanting to give away everything.

    Before I continue I want to clear this:

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    if you dont like a concept, thats fine, i lose nothing, but your game does.

    While that is correct, "your game"? I am just a fellow inspiring player just to be clear.

    @boogis said in Egregors:

    you have to keep in mind that its me who is giving you a favour, not you.

    Yes, that is also very true, and it is not fun for me either to just "reject" every interesting suggestion you make. I am very glad you are making suggestions and respect you a lot for the suggestions you have made so far to this game.

    I am also sorry for always taking the standpoint "does this add enything? is it worth it?" and trying to keep to that mindest, until you convince me that it is a nice addition.

    Going back to the topic at hand, concerning Egregos:

    Since your initial post is not very clear, what I now did was abstract the important points of the system out of your text, so it is more clear to me what you actually wrote. I also dropped the idea of "is it worth it?" and did not think about "how could we merge Egregos with existing systems?"

    I did not really think about gods in the system yet, but what I think is really interesting are Priests and Foundations.
    So my thoughts on Priests:

    • I think we could make a clear distinction between normal players and players who are priests.
    • While Priests pray to god, players can only pray to priests (but they still get buffs from praying, maybe not?)
    • Priests can create a Foundation or join an existing one

    A difficult question for me is, which part of the player base will be priests and who will be normal players?
    Since priests will be the ones giving gold (or whatever the in game currency is) to the players, I would say priests are "high end" players (who will profit more of the skills and buffs), while normal players can really profit of the gold. Now the difficult thing for me is, how do we make each role worth to choose?

    So, what are the benfits of a priest?:

    • You get extra skills from the god you worhip
    • You get buffs from praying (can only pray to their god)
    • Limit the amount of quests a priest can make, to prevent one priest from dominating

    and the benfits of a player?:

    • You gain gold from doing quests for priests (from priests)
    • You get buffs for praying to a priest (maybe a less effictive one than the priest gets from his god? maybe even every priest has his own buff choice, which a player would get?)
    • Can only pray to priests / foundations he recently made quests from

    Also priests will be more specialiced for one thing, while normal players have the chance to make quests for different priests and gain different buffs? I think this might be a hard thing to balance out.

    Now my thoughts on Foundations so far:

    Since Egregor has potentially two base orientations, which are good and evil, Foundations can be the sub - orientations to eacht side, and there thereoretically can be an infinite amount.

    • Can be created by a Priest (who will be the lead priest)
    • Is aligned to one god
    • Can on creation choose the buffs priests get from praying (also dependent on the god which was chosen; maybe some buff for crafting, gathering, mining, crafting, PvP , PvE...)
    • One thing that you mentioned: will have something like a "point bank"; maybe will be automatically disbanded once it reaches zero?
    • Other priests can apply to be a sub - priest of this Foundation. The lead priest or a vote between all priests decide which priests can join
    • The amount of priests is limited, but can increase with the amount of players that make quests from this Foundation (but there should still be a max limit, to prevent a few big foundations ruling over the world)
    • Add a town building maybe called "Temple". I have two takes on this:
      • Add one Temple, where multiple Foundations can apply. The townspeople can vote for which foundations they want to have (maybe 3-5). This is where player can accept quests / priests can issue quests on some sort of board maybe, This is also where you can pray / make sacrifices to your god
      • Add multiple Temples (so that each Foundation has it´s own building) The rest is practically the same
    • Limit the amount of towns it can impact (again to prevent huge foundations ruling over the world)

    Those are some ideas of mine so far.


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @eurav said in Egregors:

    • Add a town building maybe called "Temple". I have two takes on this:
      • Add one Temple, where multiple Foundations can apply. The townspeople can vote for which foundations they want to have (maybe 3-5). This is where player can accept quests / priests can issue quests on some sort of board maybe, This is also where you can pray / make sacrifices to your god
      • Add multiple Temples (so that each Foundation has it´s own building) The rest is practically the same
    • Limit the amount of towns it can impact (again to prevent huge foundations ruling over the world)

    Those are some ideas of mine so far.

    sorry mate, since im not originally english speaking, i cant cover all of the issues at the same time cos frankly i didnt understand it all. buy i will get back to it later. so ill do it one step at the time.

    so temples. yes there are temples in towns. and that depends how deep do you want this game to be. if its simple you then have one temple for all gods, cos you know its a temple, whats a difference, but if its deeper game then you can have a religions, and every religion has tample, and in some cases every god has temple, but foundations they more like an icon. there are gods and there are smallers gods or maybe apostles. like different pantheon of gods. priest can create a foundation of some gods, it can serve a different purpose, it can be individual foundation it can be common foundation of priests group. individual is when one rich priest can make it for this own needs, common its when you and your frieds wants to serve some particular god.
    you collect points just for that god, and everyone know that so people have deal with you by knowing that this will make this god stronger so we need to support this foundation. individual isnt bad idea either cos one individual periest can create a lots of trouble for enemies.

    since this game isnt aiming to be a very complicated then one tample for all gods will be fine. we dont need a temple for every foundation. if we had different religions then yes, so maybe every god can have different temple tho. cos in this game each god is like a different religion.

    only priest can do sucrifice to gods, to be able to do that they collect special items like body parts of creatures, their blood, preciouse metals and stones, also body parts of oposing side players. also some artifacts which every side can have. like there could be only demon artifact and only demon can use it. its worthless for beastmen but they can sucrifice it and get lots of points. so basicaly everything what is related to murdering of oposing side.

    about limitation of towns. it shouldnt be limited, cos its barakes freedom of faith, but also these foundation they like a religiouse economy - u cant just limit buiseness, cos people wont feel like they have space for growing, there must be freedom, but its wouldnt bother too much, there will be strongest groups anyways so free feith market will deside who to pray.

    also little bit about how to become a priest i think you ve mantioned it this time. amount of priests are not limited, in my opinion nothing should be limited, but there should be conditions which will limit their amount naturaly. we have to remember that being a priest is like to belong to highest kast. for example you have to have some amount of money (gold or smth) to become priest. cos you will have to create quests for players and you have to pay them up somehow. also you have to have some amount of points to start from.

    so both your money and your points go to some sort of account where they cant be taken from. only use for faith purpouse. this need to prevent other players borrowing you gold just to become a priest. and it need to be progress system to become a priest, so if you first priest you need 1000 gold but if you 10th priest you need 2000 gold. if you 50th then 50000 gold or something like that. also priest have to joing priest guild or organisation where you can see all activity of the priest, and if some one is inactive he can be voted out of being priests. those organisations are local, for example Priests of City of London and limitation on becomeing a prists active only beyond this organisation. it needs to prevents monopoly amongst all priests for example some large group can form and kick out all other priest even tho they are still active.

    ok thats it for now, more info later


  • TF#4 - EMISSARY

    @boogis I wonder if anyone except us two, is actually going to read all this lul


  • TF#9 - FIRST AMBASSADOR

    @eurav no


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @eurav said in Egregors:

    I think we could make a clear distinction between normal players and players who are priests.
    While Priests pray to god, players can only pray to priests (but they still get buffs from praying, maybe not?)
    Priests can create a Foundation or join an existing one

    yes all is correct, except players can also pray god but priests get one thing out of it and players get the other. priests follow personal intrest - they want more points. they also can create a common god foundation which is more altruistic comitment, but its still personal interest of control and power and respect. yes player get some buffs from giving priest their point but they are not major, cos its their personal desision to give away their points. but we have to give a reason for people to give away thier points, for example it can be altruistic reason "to make Babilis strongest of all Gods" so eveyone chip in for one god. Also it can be an egoistic reason - priests can perform some actions in battle, for example they use point to heal and ressurect. or some other tipical stuff what priests do with power of faith, like some buffs. When they make Babilis strongest of gods you can get you buffs in two ways - you can pray for them directly to Babilis in temple (this is permanent buffs) investing you points in his foundation, but some of other buffs (tempreraly one) priest have perform directly on battle feild. and to do it you have to have priest himself (obviously) and his egregor points.

    so there will be an interesting relations between players about points trasfering. Maybe there will be like guild ponts foundation where everyone will put their ponts together in exchange of priest services, or maybe there will be private priests who you can hire.

    we can make up some other purpose of egregor points, for example priest can bless building to prevent it from spys or negative energies (enemy priest can curse stuff) from being destroyed, he can bless weapon from being broken, (enemy priest can curse blacksmithy to produse bad weapon, or easy to break one) he can bless farms for better crops (enemy priest can also curse farms). we can bless our cattle and horse, we can bless our ships, so many other thing, you mantion it. so its like (+0-), + is when you from zero make it better, and 0 its when you from - make it normal. and - its when you from normal make it worse.

    also blessing can be with different straight, so some priests are stron and some are just a beginers. so there are blessings which procs with 50% chance and others with 100%. say ressurection. if priest do it himself on a battlefeild then its 100% chance, but if he do it in a temple before hore goes to long jorney then its randome numbers and no one know what numbers. your ress. can proc 2 times and maybe dont proc at all cos it has like 50% chance. you never know. the more points you invest then more chance of blessing you have. say you blessed farm from being cursed and you invested 100 points and it gave you 50% chance. then enemy came and cursed this farm and he invested 200 points which gave him 100% chance that means he bits you up and his curse is succesful. say you bless farm for 1000 points and it gave you 500% of protection. and enemy came and he curse your farm for 400% that means that he is not succeded but you have left with only 100% of blessing protection.

    and this war can be going on endlessly - you can curse farm for 10000% (endless war) and it will be more profit to destroy it and build a new one, if you have rights for this spot. or maybe he curse not just a building but the whole spot so it doesnt matter if you destroyed building or not, you will have to bless your spot until it become normal again or become blessed.
    its will be difficult to curse city, but maybe during the saiges it can happen. building who stay on the edge can be cursed easily.


  • TF#1 - WHISPERER

    @eurav said in Egregors:

    @boogis I wonder if anyone except us two, is actually going to read all this lul

    who cares! those who need it will read those who desnt they wont, its not our problem, im writing for not being read but for being said. the rest is not my buisiness


  • TF#7 - AMBASSADOR

    already have karma system...


 

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